Saturday, August 31, 2013

Heos Hou appearances (until)

Based on the debate of Matthew 1:25 and as to whether or not it teaches Mary and Joseph had sex after the birth of Christ, I compiled a list of times the Greek phrase εως ου occurs in the LXX and Greek New Testament. I still have not finished the LXX part of it, but I am pretty sure I did get all the NT(unless I missed a few variants).  The phrase εως ου appears in the translations as "until" or "til" or otherwise, it will be surrounded by ** (typically translated as "before" or "while"). The translations will be from the NAB, unless its stated as the KJV, the other translation used is the NET for all the translations of the LXX. From this the reader can decide for himself if the usage of "εως ου " is actually proof that Joseph and Mary had sex after the birth of the Lord, I think the evidence demonstrates you cannot prove it from the phrase. 

He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.--Matthew 1:25

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν· καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν.--Matthew 1:25

When day came, the Jews made a plot and bound themselves by oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul.--Acts 23:12

Γενομένης δὲ ἡμέρας ποιήσαντες συστροφὴν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ἀνεθεμάτισαν ἑαυτοὺς λέγοντες μήτε φαγεῖν μήτε πιεῖν ἕως οὗ ἀποκτείνωσιν τὸν Παῦλον.--Acts 23:12

As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, "Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."--Matthew 17:9

Καὶ καταβαινόντων αὐτῶν ἐκ τοῦ ὄρους ἐνετείλατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγων· Μηδενὶ εἴπητε τὸ ὅραμα ἕως οὗ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐκ νεκρῶν ἐγερθῇ. --Matthew 17:9

for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."--Luke 22:18

λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ πίω ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν ἀπὸ τοῦ γενήματος τῆς ἀμπέλου ἕως οὗ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἔλθῃ.--Luke 22:18

But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt.--Matthew 18:30, found in Byzantine majority

ο δε ουκ ηθελεν αλλα αλλ απελθων εβαλεν αυτον εις φυλακην εως ου αποδω το οφειλομενον--Matthew 18:30 (Byzantine majority and TRs)

Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt--Matthew 18:34

και οργισθεις ο κυριος αυτου παρεδωκεν αυτον τοις βασανισταις εως [ου] αποδω παν το οφειλομενον αὐτῷ--Matthew 18:34

It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed (in) with three measures of wheat flour until the whole batch of dough was leavened."--Luke 13:21

ὁμοία ἐστὶν ζύμῃ, ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἔκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη ὅλον.--Luke 13:21

He spoke to them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed with three measures of wheat flour until the whole batch was leavened."--Matthew 13:33

Ἄλλην παραβολὴν ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς· Ὁμοία ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν ζύμῃ, ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἐνέκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη ὅλον.--Matthew 13:33

and he said to his disciples, "Sit here *while* I go over there and pray."--Matthew 26:36 (most texts have heos ho)

Τότε ἔρχεται μετ' αὐτῶν ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἰς χωρίον λεγόμενον Γεθσημανὶ, καὶ λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς· Καθίσατε αὐτοῦ ἕως οὗ ἀπελθὼν ἐκεῖ προσεύξωμαι.--Matthew 26:36

Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.--Acts 21:26 (KJV)

τότε ὁ Παῦλος παραλαβὼν τοὺς ἄνδρας τῇ ἐχομένῃ ἡμέρᾳ σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁγνισθεὶς εἰσῄει εἰς τὸ ἱερόν, διαγγέλλων τὴν ἐκπλήρωσιν τῶν ἡμερῶν τοῦ ἁγνισμοῦ ἕως οὗ προσηνέχθη ὑπὲρ ἑνὸς ἑκάστου αὐτῶν ἡ προσφορά.--Acts 21:26

And when Paul appealed that he be held in custody for the Emperor's decision, I ordered him held until I could send him to Caesar."--Acts 25:21

τοῦ δὲ Παύλου ἐπικαλεσαμένου τηρηθῆναι αὐτὸν εἰς τὴν τοῦ Σεβαστοῦ διάγνωσιν, ἐκέλευσα τηρεῖσθαι αὐτὸν ἕως οὗ ἀναπέμψω αὐτὸν πρὸς Καίσαρα.--Acts 25:21

"Or what woman having ten coins and losing one would not light a lamp and sweep the house, searching carefully until she finds it?"--Luke 15:8

Ἢ τίς γυνὴ δραχμὰς ἔχουσα δέκα, ἐὰν ἀπολέσῃ δραχμὴν μίαν, οὐχὶ ἅπτει λύχνον καὶ σαροῖ τὴν οἰκίαν καὶ ζητεῖ ἐπιμελῶς ἕως οὗ εὕρῃ;--Luke 15:8

Then he made the disciples get into the boat and precede him to the other side, *while* he dismissed the crowds.--Matthew 14:22

Καὶ εὐθέως ἠνάγκασεν τοὺς μαθητὰς ἐμβῆναι εἰς πλοῖον καὶ προάγειν αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ πέραν, ἕως οὗ ἀπολύσῃ τοὺς ὄχλους. --Matthew 14:22

And (behold) I am sending the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."--Luke 24:49

καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ πατρός μου ἐφ' ὑμᾶς· ὑμεῖς δὲ καθίσατε ἐν τῇ πόλει ἕως οὗ ἐνδύσησθε ἐξ ὕψους δύναμιν.--Luke 24:49

Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.--John 13:38

 ἀποκρίνεται Ἰησοῦς· Τὴν ψυχήν σου ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ θήσεις; ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἀλέκτωρ φωνήσῃ ἕως οὗ ἀρνήσῃ με τρίς.--John 13:38

Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.--2 Peter 1:19

καὶ ἔχομεν βεβαιότερον τὸν προφητικὸν λόγον, ᾧ καλῶς ποιεῖτε προσέχοντες ὡς λύχνῳ φαίνοντι ἐν αὐχμηρῶ τόπῳ, ἕως οὖ ἡμέρα διαυγάσῃ καὶ φωσφόρος ἀνατείλῃ ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν·--2 Peter 1:19

Old Testament Greek Septuagint instances:

Then Nabouchodonosor was filled with anger, and the appearance of his face was distorted against Sedrach, Misach, Abdenago. And he said that the furnace should be stoked up sevenfold until it would be heated completely.-- Daniel 3:19 LXX (Theodotion version)

τότε Ναβουχοδονοσορ ἐπλήσθη θυμοῦ καὶ ἡ ὄψις τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ ἠλλοιώθη ἐπὶ Σεδραχ Μισαχ καὶ Αβδεναγω καὶ εἶπεν ἐκκαῦσαι τὴν κάμινον ἑπταπλασίως ἕως οὗ εἰς τέλος ἐκκαῇ--Daniel 3:19 LXX Theodotion

even until the commander in chief delivers the captives. And sacrifice was overthrown on account of it. And it emerged, and things were prosperous for it, and the sanctuary will be desolated.—Daniel 8:11 LXX Theodotion

καὶ ἕως οὗ ὁ ἀρχιστράτηγος ῥύσηται τὴν αἰχμαλωσίαν καὶ δι᾽ αὐτὸν θυσία ἐρράχθη καὶ ἐγενήθη καὶ κατευοδώθη αὐτῷ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον ἐρημωθήσεται --Daniel 8:11 LXX (Theodotion)

But fifty [forty in other texts] days did not pass *before* two of his sons killed him, and they fled into the mountains of Ararat. Then Sacherdonos his son became king in place of him. And he appointed Achiacharos son of Hanael my brother over all the accounts of his kingdom and over all the administration.--Tobit 1:21 in both versions of the LXX ἕως οὗ is used

καὶ οὐ διῆλθον ἡμέραι τεσσαράκοντα ἕως οὗ ἀπέκτειναν αὐτὸν οἱ δύο υἱοὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔφυγον εἰς τὰ ὄρη Αραρατ καὶ ἐβασίλευσεν Σαχερδονος υἱὸς αὐτοῦ μετ᾽ αὐτόν καὶ ἔταξεν Αχιχαρον τὸν Αναηλ τὸν τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μου υἱὸν ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν ἐκλογιστίαν τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς εἶχεν τὴν ἐξουσίαν ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν διοίκησιν --Tobit 1:21 LXX Tobit S

καὶ οὐ διῆλθον ἡμέραι πεντήκοντα ἕως οὗ ἀπέκτειναν αὐτὸν οἱ δύο υἱοὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔφυγον εἰς τὰ ὄρη Αραρατ καὶ ἐβασίλευσεν Σαχερδονος ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἀντ᾽ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔταξεν Αχιαχαρον τὸν Αναηλ υἱὸν τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μου ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν ἐκλογιστίαν τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν διοίκησιν--Tobit 1:21 LXX Tobit BA

*Before* the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain--Ecclesiastes 12:2 LXX

ἕως οὗ μὴ σκοτισθῇ ὁ ἥλιος καὶ τὸ φῶς καὶ ἡ σελήνη καὶ οἱ ἀστέρες καὶ ἐπιστρέψωσιν τὰ νέφη ὀπίσω τοῦ ὑετοῦ--Ecclesiates 12:2 LXX

Bring my soul out of prison so that I may acknowledge your name [O Lord]. Righteous ones will wait for me until you requite me.--Psalm 141:8 LXX (142:7 in Hebrew based numberings)

ἐξάγαγε ἐκ φυλακῆς τὴν ψυχήν μου τοῦ ἐξομολογήσασθαι τῷ ὀνόματί σου κύριε ἐμὲ ὑπομενοῦσιν δίκαιοι ἕως οὗ ἀνταποδῷς μοι--Psalm 141:8 LXX (142:7 in Hebrew based numberings)

Until the day breathes and the shadows stir, I will go on my own to the mountain of myrrh and to the hill of frankincense [or Lebanon]--Songs of Solomon 4:6 LXX

ἕως οὗ διαπνεύσῃ ἡ ἡμέρα καὶ κινηθῶσιν αἱ σκιαί πορεύσομαι ἐμαυτῷ πρὸς τὸ ὄρος τῆς σμύρνης καὶ πρὸς τὸν βουνὸν τοῦ Λιβάνου--Songs of Solomon 4:6 LXX

And the days which we had gone alongside, from Kades Barne until we passed along the ravine of Zared were thirty-eight years, until the entire generation of the men, warriors, of the camp had fallen away, as the Lord had sworn to them. And the hand of God was against them, to eliminate them from the camp, until they fell away.—Deuteronomy 2:14-15 LXX

καὶ αἱ ἡμέραι ἃς παρεπορεύθημεν ἀπὸ Καδης Βαρνη ἕως οὗ παρήλθομεν τὴν φάραγγα Ζαρετ τριάκοντα καὶ ὀκτὼ ἔτη ἕως οὗ διέπεσεν πᾶσα γενεὰ ἀνδρῶν πολεμιστῶν ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἐκ τῆς παρεμβολῆς καθότι ὤμοσεν αὐτοῖς ὁ θεός.  καὶ ἡ χεὶρ τοῦ θεοῦ ἦν ἐπ᾽ αὐτοῖς ἐξαναλῶσαι αὐτοὺς ἐκ τῆς παρεμβολῆς ἕως οὗ διέπεσαν --Deuteronomy 2:14-15 LXX

The first was like a lioness, and the wings of this one were as of an eagle. I kept watching until its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and was set upon feet of a human, and the heart of a human was given to it.—Daniel 7:4 LXX Theodotion

τὸ πρῶτον ὡσεὶ λέαινα καὶ πτερὰ αὐτῇ ὡσεὶ ἀετοῦ ἐθεώρουν ἕως οὗ ἐξετίλη τὰ πτερὰ αὐτῆς καὶ ἐξήρθη ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐπὶ ποδῶν ἀνθρώπου ἐστάθη καὶ καρδία ἀνθρώπου ἐδόθη αὐτῇ--Daniel 7:4 LXX (Theodotion)

until the ancient of days came, and he gave the judgment for the holy ones of the Most High, and the time arrived, and the holy ones gained possession of the kingdom.—Daniel 7:22 LXX Theodotion
ἕως οὗ ἦλθεν ὁ παλαιὸς τῶν ἡμερῶν καὶ τὸ κρίμα ἔδωκεν ἁγίοις ὑψίστου καὶ ὁ καιρὸς ἔφθασεν καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν κατέσχον οἱ ἅγιοι--Daniel 7:22 LXX (Theodotion)

until Daniel came—whose name was Baltasar according to the name of my god, who has a holy, divine spirit in himself—to whom I said—Daniel 4:8 LXX Theodotion

ἕως οὗ ἦλθεν Δανιηλ οὗ τὸ ὄνομα Βαλτασαρ κατὰ τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θεοῦ μου ὃς πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἅγιον ἐν ἑαυτῷ ἔχει καὶ τὸ ἐνύπνιον ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ εἶπα--Daniel 4:8 LXX Theodotion

And because the king saw Ir and a holy one descending from heaven and he said, ‘Pluck out the tree, and destroy it, except leave the growth of its roots in the ground and in an iron and brass band and in the tender grass of the outdoors. And he will lodge in the dew of heaven, and his lot will be with the wild animals until seven seasons change over him’—Daniel 4:23 LXX Theodotion

καὶ ὅτι εἶδεν ὁ βασιλεὺς ιρ καὶ ἅγιον καταβαίνοντα ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ εἶπεν ἐκτίλατε τὸ δένδρον καὶ διαφθείρατε αὐτό πλὴν τὴν φυὴν τῶν ῥιζῶν αὐτοῦ ἐάσατε ἐν τῇ γῇ καὶ ἐν δεσμῷ σιδηρῷ καὶ χαλκῷ καὶ ἐν τῇ χλόῃ τῇ ἔξω καὶ ἐν τῇ δρόσῳ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ αὐλισθήσεται καὶ μετὰ θηρίων ἀγρίων ἡ μερὶς αὐτοῦ ἕως οὗ ἑπτὰ καιροὶ ἀλλοιωθῶσιν ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν --Daniel 4:23 LXX Theodotion

And they will drive you away from humans, and your dwelling will be with the wild animals. And they will feed you grass like an ox, and you will lodge by the dew of heaven, and seven seasons will be altered over you until you acknowledge that the Most High has sovereignty over the kingdom of humans and will give it to whomever he wishes.—Daniel 4:25 LXX Theodotion

καὶ σὲ ἐκδιώξουσιν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ μετὰ θηρίων ἀγρίων ἔσται ἡ κατοικία σου καὶ χόρτον ὡς βοῦν ψωμιοῦσίν σε καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δρόσου τοῦ οὐρανοῦ αὐλισθήσῃ καὶ ἑπτὰ καιροὶ ἀλλαγήσονται ἐπὶ σέ ἕως οὗ γνῷς ὅτι κυριεύει ὁ ὕψιστος τῆς βασιλείας τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ ᾧ ἂν δόξῃ δώσει αὐτήν--Daniel 4:25 LXX Theodotion

And they will drive you away from humans, and your dwelling will be with the wild animals. And they will feed you grass like an ox, and seven seasons will be altered over you until you acknowledge that the Most High has sovereignty over the kingdom of humans and will give it to whomever he wishes.”  At the same time, the sentence was completed against Nabouchodonosor, and he was driven away from humans and ate grass like an ox, and his body was bathed with the dew of heaven until his hair lengthened like that of lions and his nails like those of birds.—Daniel 4:32-33 LXX Theodotion

καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων σε ἐκδιώξουσιν καὶ μετὰ θηρίων ἀγρίων ἡ κατοικία σου καὶ χόρτον ὡς βοῦν ψωμιοῦσίν σε καὶ ἑπτὰ καιροὶ ἀλλαγήσονται ἐπὶ σέ ἕως οὗ γνῷς ὅτι κυριεύει ὁ ὕψιστος τῆς βασιλείας τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ ᾧ ἐὰν δόξῃ δώσει αὐτήν αὐτῇ τῇ ὥρᾳ ὁ λόγος συνετελέσθη ἐπὶ Ναβουχοδονοσορ καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐξεδιώχθη καὶ χόρτον ὡς βοῦς ἤσθιεν καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δρόσου τοῦ οὐρανοῦ τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ ἐβάφη ἕως οὗ αἱ τρίχες αὐτοῦ ὡς λεόντων ἐμεγαλύνθησαν καὶ οἱ ὄνυχες αὐτοῦ ὡς ὀρνέων--Daniel 4:32-33 LXX Theodotion

Now the priests who bore the ark of the covenant stood in the Jordan until Iesous finished everything the Lord commanded him to tell the people. And the people hastened, and they crossed over.--Joshua 4:10 LXX

εἱστήκεισαν δὲ οἱ ἱερεῖς οἱ αἴροντες τὴν κιβωτὸν τῆς διαθήκης ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ ἕως οὗ συνετέλεσεν Ἰησοῦς πάντα ἃ ἐνετείλατο κύριος ἀναγγεῖλαι τῷ λαῷ καὶ ἔσπευσεν ὁ λαὸς καὶ διέβησαν--Joshua 4:10 LXX

and they rejected the Lord among all the offspring of Israel, and he shook them and gave them into the hand of those who plundered them, until he had banished them from his presence-2 Kings 17:20 LXX (4 Kings 17:20 in LXX)

καὶ ἀπεώσαντο τὸν κύριον ἐν παντὶ σπέρματι Ισραηλ καὶ ἐσάλευσεν αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτοὺς ἐν χειρὶ διαρπαζόντων αὐτούς ἕως οὗ ἀπέρριψεν αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ προσώπου αὐτοῦ--2 Kings 17:20 LXX

until the Lord removed Israel from his sight, just as the Lord had spoken by the hand of all his slaves the prophets. And Israel was exiled from upon its own land to the Assyrians until this day.—2 Kings 17:23 LXX (4 Kings 17:23 in LXX)

ἕως οὗ μετέστησεν κύριος τὸν Ισραηλ ἀπὸ προσώπου αὐτοῦ καθὼς ἐλάλησεν κύριος ἐν χειρὶ πάντων τῶν δούλων αὐτοῦ τῶν προφητῶν καὶ ἀπῳκίσθη Ισραηλ ἐπάνωθεν τῆς γῆς αὐτοῦ εἰς Ἀσσυρίους ἕως τῆς ἡμέρας ταύτης --2 Kings 17:23 LXX

And he made machines in Ierousalem devised by a mathematician to be on the towers and on the corners to fire projectiles and large stones. And their construction was noised abroad far and wide, because it was marveled at in order to be of help until he became strong.—2 Chronicles 26:15

καὶ ἐποίησεν ἐν Ιερουσαλημ μηχανὰς μεμηχανευμένας λογιστοῦ τοῦ εἶναι ἐπὶ τῶν πύργων καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν γωνιῶν βάλλειν βέλεσιν καὶ λίθοις μεγάλοις καὶ ἠκούσθη ἡ κατασκευὴ αὐτῶν ἕως πόρρω ὅτι ἐθαυμαστώθη τοῦ βοηθηθῆναι ἕως οὗ κατίσχυσεν --2 Chronicles 26:15 LXX

And the king spoke, and they brought the men who had slandered Daniel, and they were thrown into the lions’ pit—they and their sons and their wives. And *before* they reached the bottom of the pit the lions overpowered them and pulverized all their bones.—Daniel 6:25 LXX (verse 24 in some) Theodotion

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ βασιλεύς καὶ ἠγάγοσαν τοὺς ἄνδρας τοὺς διαβαλόντας τὸν Δανιηλ καὶ εἰς τὸν λάκκον τῶν λεόντων ἐνεβλήθησαν αὐτοὶ καὶ οἱ υἱοὶ αὐτῶν καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες αὐτῶν καὶ οὐκ ἔφθασαν εἰς τὸ ἔδαφος τοῦ λάκκου ἕως οὗ ἐκυρίευσαν αὐτῶν οἱ λέοντες καὶ πάντα τὰ ὀστᾶ αὐτῶν ἐλέπτυναν --Daniel 6:25 LXX Theodotion (v 24 in some)

And towards morning, the woman came and fell down by the door at the gateway to the man’s house, there where her master was, until it was light.—Judges 19:26 LXX Codex A (Alexandrian)

καὶ ἦλθεν ἡ γυνὴ τὸ πρὸς πρωὶ καὶ ἔπεσεν παρὰ τὴν θύραν τοῦ πυλῶνος τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ ἀνδρός οὗ ἦν ὁ κύριος αὐτῆς ἐκεῖ ἕως οὗ διέφαυσεν --Judges 19:26 LXX Judges A

As for me, behold, I have given bands upon you, and do not turn from your side to your side until the days of your enclosing are completed.—Ezekiel 4:8 LXX

καὶ ἐγὼ ἰδοὺ δέδωκα ἐπὶ σὲ δεσμούς καὶ μὴ στραφῇς ἀπὸ τοῦ πλευροῦ σου ἐπὶ τὸ πλευρόν σου ἕως οὗ συντελεσθῶσιν αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ συγκλεισμοῦ σου --Ezekiel 4:8 LXX

because you were defiling yourself. And what if you are no longer cleansed until I will sate my fury?—Ezekiel 24:13 LXX

ἀνθ᾽ ὧν ἐμιαίνου σύ καὶ τί ἐὰν μὴ καθαρισθῇς ἔτι ἕως οὗ ἐμπλήσω τὸν θυμόν μου --Ezekiel 24:13 LXX

And Routh stayed close to the girls of Boos, gleaning until he completed the reaping of the barley and the wheat, and she lived with her mother-in-law.—Ruth 2:23 LXX

καὶ προσεκολλήθη Ρουθ τοῖς κορασίοις Βοος συλλέγειν ἕως οὗ συνετέλεσεν τὸν θερισμὸν τῶν κριθῶν καὶ τῶν πυρῶν καὶ ἐκάθισεν μετὰ τῆς πενθερᾶς αὐτῆς --Ruth 2:23 LXX

Now bathe and apply oil and put your clothing on yourself, and go up onto the threshing floor. Do not make yourself known to the man until he has finished drinking and eating.—Ruth 3:3 LXX

σὺ δὲ λούσῃ καὶ ἀλείψῃ καὶ περιθήσεις τὸν ἱματισμόν σου ἐπὶ σεαυτῇ καὶ ἀναβήσῃ ἐπὶ τὸν ἅλω μὴ γνωρισθῇς τῷ ἀνδρὶ ἕως οὗ συντελέσαι αὐτὸν πιεῖν καὶ φαγεῖν--Ruth 3:3 LXX

“But you, Achior, mercenary of Ammon, who have spoken these words in the day of your injustice, from this day forth you shall not see my face again until I punish the race of those out of Egypt.—Judith 6:5 LXX

σὺ δέ Αχιωρ μισθωτὲ τοῦ Αμμων ὃς ἐλάλησας τοὺς λόγους τούτους ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ἀδικίας σου οὐκ ὄψει ἔτι τὸ πρόσωπόν μου ἀπὸ τῆς ἡμέρας ταύτης ἕως οὗ ἐκδικήσω τὸ γένος τῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου--Judith 6:5 LXX

and you shall not perish until such time as you are utterly destroyed with them.--Judith 6:8 LXX

καὶ οὐκ ἀπολῇ ἕως οὗ ἐξολεθρευθῇς μετ᾽ αὐτῶν --Judith 6:8 LXX

And so they did. And Ioudith set forth, she and her slave-girl with her. The men of the city continued watching her until she went down the mountain, until she passed through the ravine and they no longer saw her—Judith 10:10 LXX

καὶ ἐποίησαν οὕτως καὶ ἐξῆλθεν Ιουδιθ αὐτὴ καὶ ἡ παιδίσκη αὐτῆς μετ᾽ αὐτῆς ἀπεσκόπευον δὲ αὐτὴν οἱ ἄνδρες τῆς πόλεως ἕως οὗ κατέβη τὸ ὄρος ἕως διῆλθεν τὸν αὐλῶνα καὶ οὐκέτι ἐθεώρουν αὐτήν--Judith 10:10 LXX

until I find a place for the Lord, a covert for the God of Iakob!”—Psalm 131:5 LXX

ἕως οὗ εὕρω τόπον τῷ κυρίῳ σκήνωμα τῷ θεῷ Ιακωβ --Psalm 131:5 LXX

And Moab was humbled in that day under the hand of Israel. And the land had rest for eighty years. And Aod judged them until he died.—Judges 3:30 LXX Codex A (Alexandrian)

καὶ ἐνετράπη Μωαβ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ὑπὸ τὴν χεῖρα Ισραηλ καὶ ἡσύχασεν ἡ γῆ ὀγδοήκοντα ἔτη καὶ ἔκρινεν αὐτοὺς Αωδ ἕως οὗ ἀπέθανεν--Judges 3:30 LXX Judges A

And Moab was humbled in that day under the hand of Israel. And the land had rest for eighty years. And Aod judged them until he died.—Judges 3:30 LXX Codex B (Vaticanus)

καὶ ἐνετράπη Μωαβ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ὑπὸ χεῖρα Ισραηλ καὶ ἡσύχασεν ἡ γῆ ὀγδοήκοντα ἔτη καὶ ἔκρινεν αὐτοὺς Αωδ ἕως οὗ ἀπέθανεν--Judges 3:30 Judges B LXX
And the hand of the sons of Israel was going out, going and becoming hard against King Iabin of Chanaan, until they destroyed King Iabin of Chanaan.—Judges 4:24 LXX Judges B (Codex Vaticanus)

καὶ ἐπορεύετο χεὶρ τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ πορευομένη καὶ σκληρυνομένη ἐπὶ Ιαβιν βασιλέα Χανααν ἕως οὗ ἐξωλέθρευσαν τὸν Ιαβιν βασιλέα Χανααν--Judges 4:24 LXX Judges B
Now when the sons of Israel heard, they all with one accord fell upon them and beat them back as far as Choba. And just as those from Ierousalem were present, so too were those from all the highlands, for they had reported to them what had happened to the camp of their enemies. And those in Galaad and those in Galilee outflanked them in a great defeat, until they came to Damascus and its territory.—Judith 15:5 LXX

ὡς δὲ ἤκουσαν οἱ υἱοὶ Ισραηλ πάντες ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἐπέπεσον ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔκοπτον αὐτοὺς ἕως Χωβα ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ οἱ ἐξ Ιερουσαλημ παρεγενήθησαν καὶ ἐκ πάσης τῆς ὀρεινῆς ἀνήγγειλαν γὰρ αὐτοῖς τὰ γεγονότα τῇ παρεμβολῇ τῶν ἐχθρῶν αὐτῶν καὶ οἱ ἐν Γαλααδ καὶ οἱ ἐν τῇ Γαλιλαίᾳ ὑπερεκέρασαν αὐτοὺς πληγῇ μεγάλῃ ἕως οὗ παρῆλθον Δαμασκὸν καὶ τὰ ὅρια αὐτῆς --Judith 15:5 LXX

Therefore, if you do not tell me the dream, I know that you have conspired to speak a lying and corrupt word before me until the time passes. State to me my dream, and I shall know that you can tell me the interpretation.”—Daniel 2:9 LXX Theodotion

ἐὰν οὖν τὸ ἐνύπνιον μὴ ἀναγγείλητέ μοι οἶδα ὅτι ῥῆμα ψευδὲς καὶ διεφθαρμένον συνέθεσθε εἰπεῖν ἐνώπιόν μου ἕως οὗ ὁ καιρὸς παρέλθῃ τὸ ἐνύπνιόν μου εἴπατέ μοι καὶ γνώσομαι ὅτι τὴν σύγκρισιν αὐτοῦ ἀναγγελεῖτέ μοι--Daniel 2:9 LXX Theodotion

you kept looking until a stone was severed from a mountain, not by hands, and it struck the image on the iron and earthenware feet and completely pulverized.—Daniel 2:34 LXX Theodotion

ἐθεώρεις ἕως οὗ ἐτμήθη λίθος ἐξ ὄρους ἄνευ χειρῶν καὶ ἐπάταξεν τὴν εἰκόνα ἐπὶ τοὺς πόδας τοὺς σιδηροῦς καὶ ὀστρακίνους καὶ ἐλέπτυνεν αὐτοὺς εἰς τέλος --Daniel 2:34 LXX Theodotion

And now, report to me all that you have done in these days.” And Ioudith related everything to him in the midst of the people, all that she had done from the day on which she had gone forth until she was speaking to them.—Judith 14:8 LXX

καὶ νῦν ἀνάγγειλόν μοι ὅσα ἐποίησας ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ταύταις καὶ ἀπήγγειλεν αὐτῷ Ιουδιθ ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ λαοῦ πάντα ὅσα ἦν πεποιηκυῖα ἀφ᾽ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐξῆλθεν ἕως οὗ ἐλάλει αὐτοῖς--Judith 14:8 LXX

He stood up and struck among the allophyles, until his hand grew weary and his hand stuck to the dagger, and the Lord brought about a great deliverance in that day. And the people were encamped behind him—only to despoil.—2 Samuel 23:10 LXX (called 2 Kings 23:10 in LXX)

αὐτὸ νέστη καὶ ἐπάταξεν ἐν τοῖς ἀλλοφύλοις ἕως οὗ ἐκοπίασεν ἡ χεὶρ αὐτοῦ καὶ προσεκολλήθη ἡ χεὶρ αὐτοῦ πρὸς τὴν μάχαιραν καὶ ἐποίησεν κύριος σωτηρίαν μεγάλην ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ καὶ ὁ λαὸς ἐκάθητο ὀπίσω αὐτοῦ πλὴν ἐκδιδύσκειν--2 Samuel 23:10 LXX

And all the assembly did obeisance, and the harp-singers were singing and the trumpets were trumpeting until the whole burnt offering was finished.—2 Chronicles 29:28 LXX

καὶ πᾶσα ἡ ἐκκλησία προσεκύνει καὶ οἱ ψαλτῳδοὶ ᾄδοντες καὶ αἱ σάλπιγγες σαλπίζουσαι ἕως οὗ συνετελέσθη ἡ ὁλοκαύτωσις--2 Chronicles 29:28 LXX

But the priests were few and were unable to skin the whole burnt offering, and their brothers the Leuites assisted them until the task was finished and until the priests were purified, because the Leuites had been purified more eagerly than the priests.—2 Chronicles 29:34 LXX

ἀλλ᾽ ἢ οἱ ἱερεῖς ὀλίγοι ἦσαν καὶ οὐκ ἐδύναντο δεῖραι τὴν ὁλοκαύτωσιν καὶ ἀντελάβοντο αὐτῶν οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτῶν οἱ Λευῖται ἕως οὗ συνετελέσθη τὸ ἔργον καὶ ἕως οὗ ἡγνίσθησαν οἱ ἱερεῖς ὅτι οἱ Λευῖται προθύμως ἡγνίσθησαν παρὰ τοὺς ἱερεῖς--2 Chronicles 29:34 LXX

In his days righteousness will sprout, and an abundance of peace, until the moon vanishes—Psalm 71:7 LXX (Psalm 72 in the most bibles)

 ἀνατελεῖ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις αὐτοῦ δικαιοσύνη καὶ πλῆθος εἰρήνης ἕως οὗ ἀνταναιρεθῇ ἡ σελήνη --Psalm 71:7 LXX

Scarcely had I passed from them, until I found him whom my soul loved. I took hold of him and would not let him go until I brought him into my mother’s house and into a chamber of her who conceived me.—Songs of Solomon 3:4 LXX

ὡς μικρὸν ὅτε παρῆλθον ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν ἕως οὗ εὗρον ὃν ἠγάπησεν ἡ ψυχή μου ἐκράτησα αὐτὸν καὶ οὐκ ἀφήσω αὐτόν ἕως οὗ εἰσήγαγον αὐτὸν εἰς οἶκον μητρός μου καὶ εἰς ταμίειον τῆς συλλαβούσης με --Songs of Solomon 3:4 LXX

and the man was exalted, and he kept getting greater, until he became very great.—Genesis 26:13 LXX

καὶ ὑψώθη ὁ ἄνθρωπος καὶ προβαίνων μείζων ἐγίνετο ἕως οὗ μέγας ἐγένετο σφόδρα --Genesis 26:13 LXX

Your ropes broke, because they were not strong. Your mast has bent; it will not release the sails; it will not raise a signal until it is given up for plunder; therefore many lame will take plunder—Isaiah 33:23 LXX

ἐρράγησαν τὰ σχοινία σου ὅτι οὐκ ἐνίσχυσεν ὁ ἱστός σου ἔκλινεν οὐ χαλάσει τὰ ἱστία οὐκ ἀρεῖ σημεῖον ἕως οὗ παραδοθῇ εἰς προνομήν τοίνυν πολλοὶ χωλοὶ προνομὴν ποιήσουσιν --Isaiah 33:23 LXX

Injustice, injustice, I will make it! (But this shall not be such.) Until he comes to whom it is due, I will also give it over to him.—Ezekiel 21:32 (verse 27 In some texts)

ἀδικίαν ἀδικίαν θήσομαι αὐτήν οὐδ᾽ αὕτη τοιαύτη ἔσται ἕως οὗ ἔλθῃ ᾧ καθήκει καὶ παραδώσω αὐτῷ --Ezekiel 21:32 LXX (or verse 27)

you would not wait for them until they mature, would you? Or would you, on their account, refrain from getting married? Don’t, my daughters, for it has been more bitter for me than for you, because the hand of the Lord has gone forth against me.”—Ruth 1:13

μὴ αὐτοὺς προσδέξεσθε ἕως οὗ ἁδρυνθῶσιν ἢ αὐτοῖς κατασχεθήσεσθε τοῦ μὴ γενέσθαι ἀνδρί μὴ δή θυγατέρες μου ὅτι ἐπικράνθη μοι ὑπὲρ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ἐξῆλθεν ἐν ἐμοὶ χεὶρ κυρίου--Ruth 1:13 LXX

until the Lord stoops down and looks from heaven.—Lamentations 3:50 LXX

 ἕως οὗ διακύψῃ καὶ ἴδῃ κύριος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ --Lamentation 3:50 LXX

So before I tasted anything, I sprang up and removed him to a certain chamber until the sun set.—Tobit 2:4 LXX (BA) (short form found in Alexandrian, Vatican, Venetus text)

κἀγὼ πρὶν ἢ γεύσασθαί με ἀναπηδήσας ἀνειλόμην αὐτὸν εἴς τι οἴκημα ἕως οὗ ἔδυ ὁ ἥλιος --Tobit 2:4 LXX Tobit BA (shorter form of Tobit found in most eg Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, Venetus)

I did not know that there were sparrows in the wall, and since my eyes were open the sparrows dropped their warm excrement into my eyes, and white films came into my eyes. So I went to physicians, but they did not help me. Achiacharos, however, supported me until he went to Elymais.—Tobit 2:10 LXX (BA)

καὶ οὐκ ᾔδειν ὅτι στρουθία ἐν τῷ τοίχῳ ἐστίν καὶ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν μου ἀνεῳγότων ἀφώδευσαν τὰ στρουθία θερμὸν εἰς τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς μου καὶ ἐγενήθη λευκώματα εἰς τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς μου καὶ ἐπορεύθην πρὸς ἰατρούς καὶ οὐκ ὠφέλησάν με Αχιαχαρος δὲ ἔτρεφέν με ἕως οὗ ἐπορεύθη εἰς τὴν Ἐλυμαΐδα --Tobit 2:10 LXX Tobit BA

And she said to him, “Be quiet; stop deceiving me! My child has perished.” And she would go out every day to the road outside by which they had left; during the day she ate no food, and during the nights she never stopped mourning for Tobias her son, until the fourteen days of the wedding feast had ended which Ragouel had sworn that he should have there. Then Tobias said to Ragouel, “Send me back, for my father and mother do not hope to see me again.”—Tobit 10:7 LXX (BA)

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ σίγα μὴ πλάνα με ἀπώλετο τὸ παιδίον μου καὶ ἐπορεύετο καθ᾽ ἡμέραν εἰς τὴν ὁδὸν ἔξω οἵας ἀπῆλθεν ἡμέρας τε ἄρτον οὐκ ἤσθιεν τὰς δὲ νύκτας οὐ διελίμπανεν θρηνοῦσα Τωβιαν τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς ἕως οὗ συνετελέσθησαν αἱ δέκα τέσσαρες ἡμέραι τοῦ γάμου ἃς ὤμοσεν Ραγουηλ ποιῆσαι αὐτὸν ἐκεῖ --Tobit 10:7 LXX Tobit BA
And Ionas went out of the city and sat down opposite the city and made a tent for himself there. And he sat under it in the shade until he should see what would become of the city—Jonah 4:5 LXX

καὶ οὐ διῆλθον ἡμέραι τεσσαράκοντα ἕως οὗ ἀπέκτειναν αὐτὸν οἱ δύο υἱοὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔφυγον εἰς τὰ ὄρη Αραρατ καὶ ἐβασίλευσεν Σαχερδονος υἱὸς αὐτοῦ μετ᾽ αὐτόν καὶ ἔταξεν Αχιχαρον τὸν Αναηλ τὸν τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μου υἱὸν ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν ἐκλογιστίαν τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς εἶχεν τὴν ἐξουσίαν ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν διοίκησιν --Jonah 4:5 LXX

Because at first she will travel with him though he twist and turn, fear and dread she will bring upon him, and she will torment him with her training until she has faith in his soul, and she will test him with her statutes.—Sirach 4:17 LXX

ὅτι διεστραμμένως πορεύσεται μετ᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐν πρώτοις φόβον καὶ δειλίαν ἐπάξει ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν καὶ βασανίσει αὐτὸν ἐν παιδείᾳ αὐτῆς ἕως οὗ ἐμπιστεύσῃ τῇ ψυχῇ αὐτοῦ καὶ πειράσει αὐτὸν ἐν τοῖς δικαιώμασιν αὐτῆς --Sirach 4:17 LXX

And all the rulers and all the people gave and brought and dropped into the chest until it was full.—2 Chronicles 24:10 LXX

καὶ ἔδωκαν πάντες ἄρχοντες καὶ πᾶς ὁ λαὸς καὶ εἰσέφερον καὶ ἐνέβαλλον εἰς τὸ γλωσσόκομον ἕως οὗ ἐπληρώθη--2 Chronicles 24:10 LXX

Have mercy on me, O God; have mercy on me, because in you my soul trusts and in the shadow of your wings I will hope until lawlessness passes by.—Psalm 56:2 (57:1 or 57:2 in most Bibles)

ἐλέησόν με ὁ θεός ἐλέησόν με ὅτι ἐπὶ σοὶ πέποιθεν ἡ ψυχή μου καὶ ἐν τῇ σκιᾷ τῶν πτερύγων σου ἐλπιῶ ἕως οὗ παρέλθῃ ἡ ἀνομία--Psalm 56:2 LXX

I have adjured you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the powers and by the forces of the fields that you do not stir up or awake love until it wish!--Songs of Solomon 2:7 LXX

ὥρκισα ὑμᾶς θυγατέρες Ιερουσαλημ ἐν ταῖς δυνάμεσιν καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἰσχύσεσιν τοῦ ἀγροῦ ἐὰν ἐγείρητε καὶ ἐξεγείρητε τὴν ἀγάπην ἕως οὗ θελήσῃ --Songs of Solomon 2:7 LXX

Until the day breathes and the shadows stir, turn, my brotherkin; be like the gazelle or a fawn of stags on mountains with glens—Songs of Solomon 2:17 LXX

ἕως οὗ διαπνεύσῃ ἡ ἡμέρα καὶ κινηθῶσιν αἱ σκιαί ἀπόστρεψον ὁμοιώθητι σύ ἀδελφιδέ μου τῷ δόρκωνι ἢ νεβρῷ ἐλάφων ἐπὶ ὄρη κοιλωμάτων --Songs of Solomon 2:17 LXX

I will go and return to my place until they are annihilated, and they will seek my face.—Hosea 5:15 LXX

πορεύσομαι καὶ ἐπιστρέψω εἰς τὸν τόπον μου ἕως οὗ ἀφανισθῶσιν καὶ ἐπιζητήσουσιν τὸ πρόσωπόν μου ἐν θλίψει αὐτῶν ὀρθριοῦσι πρός με λέγοντες--Hosea 5:15 LXX

And indeed Manasses shed very much innocent blood, until he had filled Ierousalem mouth to mouth, besides some of his sins that he made Iouda sin so that they did what was evil in the sight of the Lord—2 Kings 21:16 LXX (4 Kings 21:16 in LXX)

 καί γε αἷμα ἀθῷον ἐξέχεεν Μανασσης πολὺ σφόδρα ἕως οὗ ἔπλησεν τὴν Ιερουσαλημ στόμα εἰς στόμα πλὴν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτοῦ ὧν ἐξήμαρτεν τὸν Ιουδαν τοῦ ποιῆσαι τὸ πονηρὸν ἐν ὀφθαλμοῖς κυρίου--2 Kings 21:16 LXX
and they ministered with instruments before the tent of the house of witness, until Salomon had built the Lord’s house in Ierousalem, and they stood according to their rule at their ministrations.—1 Chronicles 6:17 LXX

καὶ ἦσαν λειτουργοῦντες ἐναντίον τῆς σκηνῆς οἴκου μαρτυρίου ἐν ὀργάνοις ἕως οὗ ᾠκοδόμησεν Σαλωμων τὸν οἶκον κυρίου ἐν Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔστησαν κατὰ τὴν κρίσιν αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὰς λειτουργίας αὐτῶν --1 Chronicles 6:17 LXX
Until he receives it, he will kiss his hands, and about his fellow’s money he lowers his voice, and at the moment for repayment he will delay for time and will pay back words of apathy, and he will blame the time.—Sirach 29:5

ἕως οὗ λάβῃ καταφιλήσει χεῖρας αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν χρημάτων τοῦ πλησίον ταπεινώσει φωνήν καὶ ἐν καιρῷ ἀποδόσεως παρελκύσει χρόνον καὶ ἀποδώσει λόγους ἀκηδίας καὶ τὸν καιρὸν αἰτιάσεται--Sirach 29:5 LXX
Firm is his heart; he will never be afraid, until he looks on his enemies—Psalm 111:8 LXX

ἐστήρικται ἡ καρδία αὐτοῦ οὐ μὴ φοβηθῇ ἕως οὗ ἐπίδῃ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἐχθροὺς αὐτοῦ --Psalm 111:8 LXX 
And he was driven from humans, and his heart was rendered with the animals. And his dwelling was with the wild asses, and they would feed him grass like an ox, and his body was bathed with the dew of heaven until he acknowledged that the Most High God has sovereignty over the kingdom of humans, and will give it to whomever he wishes.—Daniel 5:21 LXX Theodotion

καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐξεδιώχθη καὶ ἡ καρδία αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν θηρίων ἐδόθη καὶ μετὰ ὀνάγρων ἡ κατοικία αὐτοῦ καὶ χόρτον ὡς βοῦν ἐψώμιζον αὐτόν καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δρόσου τοῦ οὐρανοῦ τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ ἐβάφη ἕως οὗ ἔγνω ὅτι κυριεύει ὁ θεὸς ὁ ὕψιστος τῆς βασιλείας τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ ᾧ ἂν δόξῃ δώσει αὐτήν --Daniel 5:21 LXX Theodotion
And your sin which you had made, the bull calf, I took it and burned it with fire and crushed it, grinding thoroughly, until it became fine and it was as dust, and I threw the dust into the wadi that runs down from the mountain.—Deuteronomy 9:21

καὶ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ὑμῶν ἣν ἐποιήσατε τὸν μόσχον ἔλαβον αὐτὸν καὶ κατέκαυσα αὐτὸν ἐν πυρὶ καὶ συνέκοψα αὐτὸν καταλέσας σφόδρα ἕως οὗ ἐγένετο λεπτόν καὶ ἐγενήθη ὡσεὶ κονιορτός καὶ ἔρριψα τὸν κονιορτὸν εἰς τὸν χειμάρρουν τὸν καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ ὄρους --Deuteronomy 9:21 LXX

And I did not believe the reports until I came and my eyes saw, and behold, I had not been told the half of the abundance of your wisdom. You have added to the rumor I heard.—2 Chronicles 9:6 LXX

καὶ οὐκ ἐπίστευσα τοῖς λόγοις ἕως οὗ ἦλθον καὶ εἶδον οἱ ὀφθαλμοί μου καὶ ἰδοὺ οὐκ ἀπηγγέλη μοι ἥμισυ τοῦ πλήθους τῆς σοφίας σου προσέθηκας ἐπὶ τὴν ἀκοήν ἣν ἤκουσα--2 Chronicles 9:6 LXX
And you will be in grave infirmity with a sickness of the belly until your belly comes out with the infirmity from days to days.”—2 Chronicles 21:15 LXX

 καὶ σὺ ἐν μαλακίᾳ πονηρᾷ ἐν νόσῳ κοιλίας ἕως οὗ ἐξέλθῃ ἡ κοιλία σου μετὰ τῆς μαλακίας ἐξ ἡμερῶν εἰς ἡμέρας --2 Chronicles 21:15 LXX
And it happened after these things that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill, and his illness was so severe until there was no breath left in him.—1 Kings 17:17 LXX (3 Kings 17:17 in LXX)

καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ ταῦτα καὶ ἠρρώστησεν ὁ υἱὸς τῆς γυναικὸς τῆς κυρίας τοῦ οἴκου καὶ ἦν ἡ ἀρρωστία αὐτοῦ κραταιὰ σφόδρα ἕως οὗ οὐχ ὑπελείφθη ἐν αὐτῷ πνεῦμα--1 Kings 17:17 LXX
And Salomon sought to put Ieroboam to death, and he arose and fled to Egypt to King Sousakim of Egypt, and he was in Egypt until Salomon died.—1 Kings 11:40 LXX (3 Kings 11:40)

καὶ ἐζήτησεν Σαλωμων θανατῶσαι τὸν Ιεροβοαμ καὶ ἀνέστη καὶ ἀπέδρα εἰς Αἴγυπτον πρὸς Σουσακιμ βασιλέα Αἰγύπτου καὶ ἦν ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ ἕως οὗ ἀπέθανεν Σαλωμων--1 Kings 11:40 LXX

And all the work was accomplished from the day it was founded until Salomon completed the Lord’s house.—2 Chronicles 8:16 LXX

 καὶ ἡτοιμάσθη πᾶσα ἡ ἐργασία ἀφ᾽ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐθεμελιώθη ἕως οὗ ἐτελείωσεν Σαλωμων τὸν οἶκον κυρίου--2 Chronicles 8:16 LXX

They shall vanish like water that flows through; he will bend his bow until they become weak.—Psalm 57:8 LXX (Psalm 58 in most bibles)

ἐξουδενωθήσονται ὡς ὕδωρ διαπορευόμενον ἐντενεῖ τὸ τόξον αὐτοῦ ἕως οὗ ἀσθενήσουσιν --Psalm 57:8 LXX

Look, as slaves’ eyes look to their masters’ hands, as a maid’s eyes to her mistress’ hands, so our eyes look to the Lord our God, until he has compassion on us.—Psalm 122:2 (Psalm 123 in most)

 ἰδοὺ ὡς ὀφθαλμοὶ δούλων εἰς χεῖρας τῶν κυρίων αὐτῶν ὡς ὀφθαλμοὶ παιδίσκης εἰς χεῖρας τῆς κυρίας αὐτῆς οὕτως οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἡμῶν πρὸς κύριον τὸν θεὸν ἡμῶν ἕως οὗ οἰκτιρήσαι ἡμᾶς --Psalm 122:2 LXX

And there was a great famine in Samaria, and behold, they besieged it until a donkey’s head was fifty shekels of silver, and the fourth of a kab of doves’ dung was five shekels of silver.—2 King 6:25 LXX (4 Kings 6:25)

καὶ ἐγένετο λιμὸς μέγας ἐν Σαμαρείᾳ καὶ ἰδοὺ περιεκάθηντο ἐπ᾽ αὐτήν ἕως οὗ ἐγενήθη κεφαλὴ ὄνου πεντήκοντα σίκλων ἀργυρίου καὶ τέταρτον τοῦ κάβου κόπρου περιστερῶν πέντε σίκλων ἀργυρίου--2 Kings 6:25 LXX

Pseudopigraphical/Apocrypha/Miscellaneous writings:

in no way did he turn the rudder of religion until he sailed into the haven of immortal victory.--4 Maccabees 7:3 (RSV)

κατ᾽ οὐδένα τρόπον ἔτρεψε τοὺς τῆς εὐσεβείας οἴακας ἕως οὗ ἔπλευσεν ἐπὶ τὸν τῆς ἀθανάτου νίκης λιμένα--4 Maccabees 7:3

Pagan/secular writings:

the Spartans only, although they dwelt in an unwalled city, and were few in number because of their continual wars, and had become much weaker and an easy prey, still keeping alive some feeble sparks of the laws of Lycurgus, did not take any part in the campaigns of these or of the other kings of Macedon who ruled in the interval following, nor did they ever enter the general congress or even pay tribute. So it was, until they ceased altogether to observe the laws of Lycurgus, and came to be ruled despotically by their own citizens, preserving nothing of their ancestral discipline any longer, and so they became much like the rest, and put from them their former glory and freedom of speech, and were reduced to a state of subjection; and now they, like the rest of the Greeks, have come under Roman sway.-- Plutarch, Instituta Laconica 42 (writing in Koine Greek in the 1st century and early 2nd)

μόνοι Λακεδαιμόνιοι, καίπερ ἀτείχιστον πόλιν ἔχοντες καὶ ὀλίγοι πάνυ ὄντες διὰ τοὺς συνεχεῖς πολέμους καὶ πολὺ ἀσθενέστεροι καὶ εὐχείρωτοι γενόμενοι, πάνυ βραχέα τινὰ ζώπυρα διασῴζοντες τῆς Λυκούργου νομοθεσίας, οὔτε συνεστράτευσαν οὔτε τούτοις οὔτε τοῖς μεταξὺ Μακεδονικοῖς βασιλεῦσιν, οὔτ᾽ εἰς συνέδριον κοινὸν εἰσῆλθον οὐδὲ φόρον ἤνεγκαν: ἕως οὗ παντάπασιν  ὑπεριδόντες τὴν Λυκούργου νομοθεσίαν ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων πολιτῶν ἐτυραννεύθησαν μηδὲν ἔτι σῴζοντες τῆς πατρίου ἀγωγῆς, καὶ παραπλήσιοι τοῖς ἄλλοις γενόμενοι τὴν πρόσθεν εὔκλειαν καὶ παρρησίαν ἀπέθεντο καὶ εἰς δουλείαν μετέστησαν, καὶ νῦν ὑπὸ Ῥωμαίοις καθάπερ οἱ ἄλλοι Ἕλληνες ἐγένοντο..-- Plutarch, Instituta Laconica 42 (writing in Koine Greek in the 1st century and early 2nd)

But those my fellow legates, having gotten great riches from those tithes which as priests were their dues, and were given to them, determined to return to their own country. Yet when I desired them to stay so long, that we might first settle the public affairs, they complied with me.--The Life of Flavius Josephus, Section 63 (paragraph 12)

οἱ δὲ συμπρέσβεις εὐπορήσαντες πολλῶν χρημάτων ἐκ τῶν διδομένων αὐτοῖς δεκατῶν, ἃς ὄντες ἱερεῖς ὀφειλομένας ἀπελάμβανον, εἰς τὴν οἰκείαν ὑποστρέφειν ἔκριναν. ἐμοῦ δ᾽ αὐτοὺς προσμεῖναι παρακαλέσαντος ἕως οὗ τὰ πράγματα καταστήσωμεν, πείθονται.--The Life of Flavius Josephus, Section 63 (paragraph 12)

When the day appointed for the battle arrived, Pallene (who had fallen deeply in love with Clitus) was terribly afraid for him: she dared not tell what she felt to any of her companions, but tears coursed down and down over her cheeks until her old tutor realized the state of affairs, and, after he had become aware of her passion, encouraged her to be of good cheer, as all would come about according to her desires: and he went off and suborned the chariot-driver of Dryas, inducing him, by the promise of a heavy bribe, to leave undone the pins of his chariot-wheels.--Parthenius, Narrationes Amatoriae 6.3

Τῆς δὲ ἀφωρισμένης ἡμέρας παρούσης, ἡ Παλλήνη ῾ἔτυχε γὰρ ἐρῶσα τοῦ Κλείτοὐ πάνυ ὠρρώδει περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ σημῆναι μὲν οὐκ ἐτόλμα τινὶ τῶν ἀμφ̓ αὑτήν, δάκρυα δὲ πολλὰ κατεχεῖτο τῶν παρειῶν αὐτῆς, ἕως οὗ ὁ τροφεὺς αὐτῆς πρεσβύτης ἀναπυνθανόμενος καὶ ἐπιγνοὺς τὸ πάθος τῇ μὲν θαρρεῖν παρεκελεύσατο, ὡς ᾗ βούλεται, ταύτῃ τοῦ πράγματος χωρήσοντος:-- Parthenius, Narrationes Amatoriae 6.3

If as many numbers as we please beginning from an unit be set out continuously in double proportion, until the sum of all becomes prime, and if the sum multiplied into the last make some number, the product will be perfect.      
For let as many numbers as we please, A, B, C, D, beginning from an unit be set out in double proportion, until the sum of all becomes prime, let E be equal to the sum, and let E by multiplying D make FG; I say that FG is perfect.--Euclid, Elements Book 9, Proposition 36, c 300 BC

ἐὰν ἀπὸ μονάδος ὁποσοιοῦν ἀριθμοὶ ἑξῆς ἐκτεθῶσιν ἐν τῇ διπλασίονι ἀναλογίᾳ, ἕως οὗ ὁ σύμπας συντεθεὶς πρῶτος γένηται, καὶ ὁ σύμπας ἐπὶ τὸν ἔσχατον πολλαπλασιασθεὶς ποιῇ τινα,
ὁ γενόμενος τέλειος ἔσται.
ἀπὸ γὰρ μονάδος ἐκκείσθωσαν ὁσοιδηποτοῦν ἀριθμοὶ ἐν τῇ διπλασίονι ἀναλογίᾳ, ἕως οὗ ὁ σύμπας συντεθεὶς πρῶτος γένηται, οἱ Α, Β, Γ, Δ, καὶ τῷ σύμπαντι ἴσος ἔστω--Euclid, Elements Book 9, Proposition 36

Monday, August 19, 2013

Underhanded debate tactics used by anticatholics

I encountered an ex catholic today that was eager to disprove me. There are several logical fallacies used to "win" debates, without ever winning. Some of the tactic he used to do so were done the following ways:

Either-or, black and white, complex question fallacy:

Evolutionfalse: Are you going to purgatory when you die?
BerhaneSelassie: I do not know.
Evolutionfalse: Its a yes or no question.
BerhaneSelassie: How can I give you a yes or no if I do not know???

Note: There are three possibilities that will happen when someone dies
1)Go straight to heaven with no purgatory
2)Go to heaven after going to purgatory
3)Go straight to hell, with no purgatory

In 2 of the 3 possibilities purgatory is not involved. Since I am not a prophet, nor was I give foreknowledge that I will be among the elect that will preserver to see the Beatific vision, its absurd to demand of me a certain answer. It's even more absurd to demand a "yes or no" answer, after your opponent states they do not know. Furthermore, this debater is making the issue personal, rather than keeping it on topics.

Asking 1000 questions before your opponent can finish answering 1:

This is perhaps the favorite of Protestants I have encountered, its a violation of Jesus' principle of treat others as you would want to be treated!


Protestant: Saying following an organization is necessary is cultic! Why do you do this?
Catholic: The New Testament church called itself the Way and required....[Protestant interjects]
Protestant: The NT church was not organized!
Catholic: Yes, it was according to Acts 15 they have apostles and ...
Protestant: Where did they call priests father?, where did they pray to Mary?, where did they say Mass? Where did they pray to saint? Where did they make statutes?.......etc......

The Protestant will continued asking questions in rapid fire, often times off topic. But this will look impressive to his fellow Protestants who will perceive the poor ignorant, Catholic heathen is incapable of answering.

Red herrings fallacy:

Protestants love changing the topics, especially when they see they cannot respond to your rebuttal, and just like above.

Protestant: Where was the NT church organized??
Catholic: The NT church was organized, it has priests, bishops, and had a council of them that made binding decisions on its members like in Acts 15!
Protestant: Where did they address men as "father"? Where did they pray to Mary? Where was Peter pope? When did they celebrate mass?

The Protestant asks an irrelevant question about calling men father, since there are SEVERAL organized religions that do not call their leaders fathers like the Jehovah witnesses, or most any Protestant sect, yet they are still organized. So whether or not they call a man father is irrelevant. However, often times the rest of the questions will be even more off topic. The topic was about whether the NT was ORGANIZED.

Appeal to Heaven fallacy:

This is another favorite untrained people use. They appeal to God to say the person is wrong, even if they do not present an argument. For example the man I argued with said:

Evolutionfalse: A lot of Catholics will be shocked on judgment day!

Such a statement does nothing in debates, its not evidence, it does not persuade ANYONE. So why is it said? My guess it because of emotions and desire to be seen as winning.


Many Protestants like to make elaborate arguments from bad information, therefore they refute a position no one believes:

Protestant: Catholics pray to statutes, the bible says not to do that, therefore the Catholic Church is false!!

The problem is Catholics do not ray to statues, they pray to the people the statues represent. Furthermore, the accusation anyone believes an inanimate object is a blatant insult. Rather than find out from Catholic what they are doing praying in front of a statues, a Protestant may ASSUME what they are doing.

Double Standard of evidence:

In the debate with Evolutionfalse he asked me to provide an explicit scripture for praying to saints, I said none exists. Typically, Protestants see this as victory. I often point out you cannot prove Jesus received Divine worship EVER in the NT since the Greek word Latreu is never applied to him! Likewise, there is no explicit mention of people pray TO the Holy Spirit! We can conclude these things from LOGIC, which some Protestants called a "whore." We can see the saints will go to heaven, the "partial will pass away" according to 1 Corinthians 13, and that according to the bible each part of the body feels the other, the bible requires you to pray for each other, there is only one body of Christ, not 2, the saints and angels are cognizant of when a sinner repents, they know if they have been given vengeance or not, they still have the desire to help the rest of the body since they are still saints! From this it would make sense that there is no problem to pray to saints, pray meaning to "ask" and in this case, ask them to pray to God WITH us. Likewise, from logic, we can conclude its acceptable to worship Jesus because He has the same nature as His Father who was worshipped!

Saturday, August 17, 2013

3 words for Queen in the Hebrew bible

In the translation of the text of the Hebrew Bible there are 3 term commonly translated as "queen." They are:

1)G'virah גְּבִירָה used 6 times: 1 Kings 11:19, 15:13, 2Kings 10:13, 2 Chronicles 15:16, Jeremiah 13:18, 29:2. These are in reference to Jewish women.   
2)Malkah מַּלְכָּה used around 40 times. 4 times in 1 Kings 10, 4 in 2 Chronicles 9 (all 8 concerning the Queen of Sheba). 25 times in the book of Esther (initially for Queen Vashti, then mostly for Esther). Jeremiah uses it 5 times for the pagan goddess Asherah, in verses 7:18, 44:17-19, 25. Then two times in Songs of Solomon--6:8-9. Then another 2 times at least in the Aramaic text of Daniel 5:10.
3)Shegal שֵׁגַל is used twice in the Hebrew text. Psalm 45:9(10)[called 44:10 in the LXX/Vulgate]. And once in Nehemiah 2:6. In addition it is used in the Aramaic text of Daniel 3 times, in verses 5:2-3,25.
1) The term g'virah "queen-mother" typically denotes the mother of the King as with Solomon and his mother the g'virah Bathsheba, or in the case of Asa--his grandmother (2 Chronicles 15:16).  According to 1 Kings 2:19, a throne was provided at the right hand of the King for his mother (who would be the g'virah). The position seems honorary, but extremely influential, since generally a man is most loyal to his mother.  She does not seem to have any authority in of herself, but any she had was dependent on her relationship with her son (or grandson) the king. A type of Mary and Jesus. The term G'virah seems to be exclusively for the Jewish King's mother/grandmother.

2)Malkah מַּלְכָּה is the feminine form of the word מֶּלֶךְ melek king. In the Hebrew bible there was never a Jewish malkah over Israel/Judah, not even when you might expect it in regards to the usurping woman Athaliah in 2 Kings 11.  Esther (a Benjamite like King Saul, Israel's first king), however, in her book is referred to as a malkah in the Persian empire in her time, after the king removes the original queen Vashti (Esther 1-2).  A malkah seems to be a female sovereign in the Hebrew bible, just like a king, as seen by the Queen of Sheba (1 Kings 10, 2 Chronicles 9), theoretically it could just be a title alone of the King's wife, in the sense a woman in the early church was called an episcopess/bishopess, not because she was a bishop, but because her husband was one, this may also be true with the 'prophetess' in Isaiah 8:3.  This may be the case with Queen Vashti in Esther 1, since she seems to be taking orders from the king, and is easily replaced with Esther by the king.

3) A shegal שֵׁגַל seems to be the more explicit term for the wife of the king. The term as a noun is only used twice in the Hebrew bible, and a few in Daniel 5.  The meaning of the word has been debated for thousands of years by both Jews and Christians. Some believed it to be a crude way of referring to sex/a female dog. Others suggest its an Akkadian loan word meaning the main wife of a king, which makes a little more sense. A shegal as a noun in the Hebrew text of the bible is only used in the singular, in Daniel's Aramaic its sometimes translated in the plural as "his wives" or "his queens" other translations have "his wife" or "his queen." The term shegal does not even seem to refer to an Israelite woman, though perhaps one, if not a convert in Psalm 45, otherwise, it refers to Persian royalty. The Persian shegal in Nehemiah 2 seems to sit next to the king (on a throne?).


The terms do not seem synonymous. At times Shegal and Malkah seem synonymous as they may refer to the king's wife, but neither seems to be really a position for a woman in the Davidic kingdom.  To complicate things more, both shegal and malkah in their Aramaic forms are both used in Daniel 5.  The most for certain closed equivalent to a proper Jewish queen was the G'virah--the "queen mother," who would be the recently depart king's wife, and the current king's mother. If there was a Jewish shegal, she would have became the g'virah when her son became king. But certainly there never was a true Jewish malkah in the Davidic Kingdom.

**Note: There could be other words for "queen," for example the Vulgate calls the countless wives of King Solomon "regina"--"queens," perhaps not to call them queens, but wives of the King, the Hebrew word used there is sarot, which is the feminine plural of the sar, which means "prince" or "captain"

Friday, August 9, 2013

Another round with the Antinomian

Protestant Antinomian: Did you know that In the year 1215 The doctrine of Transubstantiation was decreed by Innocent III. Transubstantiation teaches that during the mass, the wafer turns into the actual body of Christ and the wine becomes the actual blood of Christ?
BerhaneSelassie: uggg

BerhaneSelassie: honestly, do you seriously think you know more about catholicism than me?

Protestant Antinomian: 1 Cor 11:23-26

BerhaneSelassie: 1215 is only when the doctrine was define

BerhaneSelassie: it was believed prior

BerhaneSelassie: furthermore, there were different theories on the real presence

Protestant Antinomian: I know more about the GRACE of GOD than you or any catholic who has ever lived

BerhaneSelassie: transubstiation was the accepted model

BerhaneSelassie: because you are an ANTINOMIAN

Protestant Antinomian: I want you to KNOW the Love of God he has for you too

Protestant Antinomian: when Christ spoke of His body and blood, where was he standing?

BerhaneSelassie: Jesus said "this is my body"

BerhaneSelassie: Jesus "eat"

BerhaneSelassie: "eat my flesh, drink my blood"

Protestant Antinomian: Yes....But when Christ spoke of His body and blood, where was he standing?

Protestant Antinomian: simple question

BerhaneSelassie: he was NOT

BerhaneSelassie: he was sitting

BerhaneSelassie: he was providing himself as the passover lamb

Protestant Antinomian: He was standing in His physical body at this time, therefore, He could not have been offering His physical body and blood as the elements!

Protestant Antinomian: lol

Protestant Antinomian: THINK

BerhaneSelassie: who said his PHYSICAL body and blood?

Protestant Antinomian: Because His Body was Holding the Bread and the Cup....Not in it ....They simply Represented "Showed" or Displayed the BODY That He WOULD GIVE on the Cross ....It was to REMEMBER The PAYMENT & Suffering which JESUS ONE Time Sacrifice on the Cross means.

BerhaneSelassie: do you even know what transubstiation MEANS?

BerhaneSelassie: it was not a simply "representation"

BerhaneSelassie: which a thing is garage when looking at the expressions in the bible

Protestant Antinomian: The RCC says that Jesus actually Body & blood cells become the host

BerhaneSelassie: furthermore, 1 Corinthians 10 refers to it as a SACRIFICE

BerhaneSelassie: first: shows what you DONT know

Protestant Antinomian: Berhane.....Don't be deceived

BerhaneSelassie: you have no idea what trans SUBSTANCE iation is

BerhaneSelassie: yet you proudly pretend to beat it over my head

Protestant Antinomian: Why not escape the demonic pull of the RCC and receive the FREE GIFT of GOD today?

BerhaneSelassie: if you bothered to do a minute of research you would see what substance and accidents is

Protestant Antinomian: SSALVATION from Hell is a FREE GIFT and you can KNOW you HAVE IT NOW!

BerhaneSelassie: rather than pretend to

Protestant Antinomian: That is the GOOD NEWS!

Protestant Antinomian: Don't you want to KNOW your Sins have been Forgiven you by God in Heaven?

BerhaneSelassie: "know" i dont care or you so called knowledge

Protestant Antinomian: John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

BerhaneSelassie: what is your point?

Protestant Antinomian: John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH ON ME HATH EVERLASTING LIFE"

Protestant Antinomian: The Point is that you don't KNOW

BerhaneSelassie: I 'know' more than you on this matter

Protestant Antinomian: Your lost and need to change your mind and Trust JESUS ALone as your Savior and receive His FREE GIFT before it is too late

BerhaneSelassie: you have false knowledge

Protestant Antinomian: You don't KNOW

Protestant Antinomian: You have NO Idea if you are going to Heaven or Hell

BerhaneSelassie: antinomianism is evil

BerhaneSelassie: you are not saved

BerhaneSelassie: you have no eternal life

BerhaneSelassie: you have false assurance

Protestant Antinomian: John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify >>OF ME.<<!

BerhaneSelassie: I know exactly where I am headed

BerhaneSelassie: You have deceived yourself into perfect assurance based on your faith at one second

Protestant Antinomian: If JESUS Says I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE then why do you not Believe him? ...Can Jesus lie?

BerhaneSelassie: ignoring the fact God judges wicked deads

BerhaneSelassie: and sends people to hell for them

BerhaneSelassie: you realize BELIEF in the bible does not solely refer to the mental act

BerhaneSelassie: it implies obedience too

Protestant Antinomian: Where are you headed Berhane? A purgatory that says the sins where not really all paid for in full by Jesus One Timedeath & Shed Blood?

Protestant Antinomian: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and BELIEVETH ON HIM that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

BerhaneSelassie: Leave purgatory out of this--you know little on this subject either

BerhaneSelassie: I like how you prefer to ignore John 5 on "good deeds" and "evil deeds"

Protestant Antinomian: What are the 3 Eternal Promises that Jesus gives to the Believer in John 5:24 the instant they Believe in Him?

BerhaneSelassie: and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

BerhaneSelassie: dont igore the rest

Protestant Antinomian: The ONLY GOOD you can DO is to TRUST JESUS Payment for your sins

BerhaneSelassie: DO BAD--you go to hell

BerhaneSelassie: no antinomian gospel at all

Protestant Antinomian: The Evil you do is to Reject it

BerhaneSelassie: notice its PLURAL

BerhaneSelassie: besides

BerhaneSelassie: you believe i can accept it then reject and still go to heaven

Protestant Antinomian: Those in the Graves who rejected Jesus payment for ALL their sins are the Evil ....Those who accepted it by faith without works are the Good

Protestant Antinomian: understand?

BerhaneSelassie: so i can "do wicked deeds to the ressurection of life"

Protestant Antinomian: You have NOthing to Offer God for Salvation

Protestant Antinomian: ALL your deeds are wicked in God's sight until After you trust Jesus alone as your savior

Protestant Antinomian: THEN & ONLY Then can you do GOOD in His Sight because it is GOD IN YOU Doing the Work

BerhaneSelassie: "done WICKED deedS to the resurrection of condemnation"

Protestant Antinomian: Do you understand what I just said?

BerhaneSelassie: you can still do wicked deeds

BerhaneSelassie: tht does not stop

BerhaneSelassie: YES

BerhaneSelassie: Yet you know very well you can still do WICKED

BerhaneSelassie: yet you pretend doing wicked deeds does not give you condemnation

Protestant Antinomian: Notice it says those who have done GOOD?

BerhaneSelassie: YES

BerhaneSelassie: Notice how I am addressing "done BAD"?

Protestant Antinomian: Is it GOOD or Bad for a Mormon who is MORAL as can be to die having Never Trusted Jesus Christ alone as their Savior?

BerhaneSelassie: IF you EVER do a bad deed and never repent--you get condemned

Protestant Antinomian: Have they Done GOOD in Gods sight as a Mormon to have Never Trusted Jesus as their Savior....Yes or No?

BerhaneSelassie: Mormons lack faith completely

BerhaneSelassie: they are irrelevant

BerhaneSelassie: they are not even monotheists

BerhaneSelassie: JOhn 5 shows you need BOTH FAITH and WORKS

Protestant Antinomian: Mormons lack faith how?

BerhaneSelassie: they deny there is ONE GOD

Protestant Antinomian: Do Mormons do GOOD Deeds?

Protestant Antinomian: Do they Believe in Jesus?

BerhaneSelassie: Mormon deeds dont matter--they are done outside of faith

Protestant Antinomian: ahh

Protestant Antinomian: So What is their Faith in Jesus?

BerhaneSelassie: the Mormon jezuz is screwed up beyond recognition

Protestant Antinomian: So God sees their Faith in the Person of Jesus?

Protestant Antinomian: Ok....And the RCC jesus is Much different?

BerhaneSelassie: the Catholic Jesus is not a demigod, or a second god, or the product of god sex

Protestant Antinomian: Must he Mormon Jesus Believe that Jesus Died and paid the Penalty for ALL their sins past present and future on the cross?

BerhaneSelassie: Leave Mormons out of this

Protestant Antinomian: no

Protestant Antinomian: Mormons have the same Jesus as the RCC......A different jesus who didn't die for ALL their sins in FULL.....They DO EVIL Because they don't BELIEVE in the TRUE JESUS

Protestant Antinomian: Just as the RCC doesn't

Protestant Antinomian: God sees your BELIEF as GOOD or EVIL ....Not your Works

BerhaneSelassie: Your idea of what Jesus did is blasphemous, which the Mormon jezus is too, except theirs is far worse

BerhaneSelassie: belief is NOT a DEED

Protestant Antinomian: ALL your Works are Evil in His Sight no matter how Good MAN Thinks they are

Protestant Antinomian: You MUST Be Born Again By Faith alone in Jesus death & Shed Blood Payment for ALL your sins, before GOD Sees you are His Child and able to do GOOD in His Sight

BerhaneSelassie: explain to by why the wicked works you do as a Christian still do not merit the ressurection of condemnation

BerhaneSelassie: to me*

Protestant Antinomian: ONLY When GOD IS INDWELLING YOU Can you do GOOD DEEDS for CHRISTS SAKE

BerhaneSelassie: Lets say you are NOT doing good deeds

BerhaneSelassie: lets say you are sinning

Protestant Antinomian: becasue they are of the FLESH

BerhaneSelassie: raping and murdering

BerhaneSelassie: why doesnt that merit condemnation

Protestant Antinomian: My Resurrection to Heaven has NOTHING at all to do with my WORKS...good or Bad....ONE SIN was Enough to Send me to HELL forever

BerhaneSelassie: YOU are STILL doing it, they are YOUR deeds

BerhaneSelassie: i agree

BerhaneSelassie: And Jesus looks at your sins on judgement day

BerhaneSelassie: HE SAID SO

Protestant Antinomian: My Resurrection to Heaven is ONLY Based upon MY Faith in JESUS FULL PAYMENT For ALL of my Sins on the Cross

Protestant Antinomian: I am made Perfect in GODS Sight because I Have Received the Imputed Righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Without Works!

Protestant Antinomian: Jesus Will NEVER Bring up My SINS Again

BerhaneSelassie: you are NOT still "perfect" or "righteous" if you sin

Protestant Antinomian: They are FORGOTTEN as far as the East is from the West

BerhaneSelassie: God is not a blind fool that does not see you for what you REALLY are

BerhaneSelassie: God does not forget what you NEVER repent of

Protestant Antinomian: I still sin...yes.....But that is the Flesh Birth....The NEW Birth is PERFECT & Cannot sin, because it is Born of God

BerhaneSelassie: Your gospel does not require repentance of sinful works

Protestant Antinomian: The Flesh birth does NOT go to Heaven

Protestant Antinomian: it dies

BerhaneSelassie: ooo, so God judges you by two standards?

BerhaneSelassie: does your flesh burn in hell?

Protestant Antinomian: It actually was Crucified With Christ and God Sees me Positionally as having been on the Cross WITH CHRIST & Dying for ALL my SIns already

Protestant Antinomian: lol...No...My Flesh doesn't burn in Hell

BerhaneSelassie: crucified with Christ is just an expression that the old self died

Protestant Antinomian: My Flesh will go back to the Dust and then at the Resurrection, It will be raise NEW!

BerhaneSelassie: so your flesh does not ever go to condemnation?

Protestant Antinomian: No

BerhaneSelassie: so even though it sin, and does wicked deeds, it gets a get out of jail free card?

Protestant Antinomian: this corruptible FLESH must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

Protestant Antinomian: It will be Made NEW By GOD and I will receive a NEW BODY Like JESUS Resurrection Body

Protestant Antinomian: 1Cor. 15:54 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

BerhaneSelassie: seen it alreaduy

Protestant Antinomian: 1Cor. 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Protestant Antinomian: CHANGED!

Protestant Antinomian: 1Cor. 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

BerhaneSelassie: so you believe the flesh birth died with Christ, but we still haev it when we sin?

BerhaneSelassie: and that the sinful flesh will be resurrected?

BerhaneSelassie: how does that make sense at all

Protestant Antinomian: That happens at the New Born again Spirit will come Back WITH JESUS IN THE AIR and Meet my NEW BODY

BerhaneSelassie: no one gets a "new body"

Protestant Antinomian: Yes.....Positionally It was Crucified with Christ and God Sees me as having Never sinned

BerhaneSelassie: its the old body but in ideal condition

BerhaneSelassie: Thats only if you REPENTED on those sins

BerhaneSelassie: if you still commit sin--God is NOT A FOOL

BerhaneSelassie: He judges the "hearts and minds"

Protestant Antinomian: Yet Practically I am still here on earth and still have this Old Flesh BODY and the Sinful Nature .....My New Spirit IN CHRIST War against the FLESH Every day

BerhaneSelassie: wait...

Protestant Antinomian: No one will be Judged by their deeds to determine Heaven

Protestant Antinomian: Their destination is determined by whether or not their BELIEVED the Gospel of Christ or not apart from their deeds.

BerhaneSelassie: so....the flesh was positionally crucified, you still have it, but you already have a "new birth" that is perfect

BerhaneSelassie: why do you need both?

Protestant Antinomian: IN HEAVEN, I will be Judged according to my Works for REWARD or Loss of rewards I could have received

BerhaneSelassie: Romans 2:7 says the reward for disobedience is damnation

BerhaneSelassie: im going to sleep good nite, I will post this conversation is you wan to read it

Protestant Antinomian: I Need a Body to I not? ...I cannot receive my NEW Body until the for now I have the same old Body I was Born with.....But God says we are to RECKON ourselves to be DEAD unto sin and Alive unto God

Protestant Antinomian: Romans 6:11 "Likewise RECKON ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." ….Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Protestant Antinomian: Be sure to POST it all

Protestant Antinomian: The OLD MAN IS Still alive & Well in the Born again Christian..... God did Not Change that Old Flesh Nature.... He simply Gives the Believer a Brand New BIRTH ...... The OLD BIRTH Still Exists & Wars Daily With the New Birth Rom. 7:23.....Christ DIED For the Penalty of Sin which was Committed in the FLESH.....

Protestant Antinomian: As a Born again Believer God says we are to > RECKON < yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but ALIVE unto God ! Rom. 6:11 ...... If you WALK In the Spirit then you will NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE > FLESH<

BerhaneSelassie: OK, I get it, you are simultaneously a "new birth" and an "old birth"

BerhaneSelassie: as if that makes sense

Protestant Antinomian: The 2 Natures are Contrary the One to the Other and the Flesh Lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the Flesh. Gal. 5:16,17 ,... But if the Born again Christian WALKs IN THE SPIRIT they shall NOT FUlfil the Lust of the Flesh! …

Protestant Antinomian: 1Peter 2:11 "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;" .

BerhaneSelassie: Your idea of Christians can fulfull the lusts of the flesh and go to heaven

Protestant Antinomian: Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.