(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."--John 20:21-23Many will object and assert that here the only thing Jesus is doing here is telling the Apostles that they can now forgive their brother when their brother sins against them.
This reading, however, is highly problematic. Their interpretation requires them to add two words into the verse to make it sins done against the Apostles. Let's see how their interpretation would read in they added the words to the text:
"If you forgive the sins done against you of any their sins done against you have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins done against you of any, they have been retained." (Protestant understanding of John 20:23)The thing about this is that, if Christ wanted to say this He would have said this! Whenever the Bible speaks about sins done against God it simply says "sins against the LORD" or some variation of it, or simply says "sins" or some variation of sin like "trespass," "offend," etc. Now when they Bible says a person was harmed by another person it says someone "sinned against them", it always does so, so as to not confuse it with sinning against God. Here are a few examples:
But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.--Matthew 18:15Furthermore, why would Jesus have to breathe on them to have the ability to forgive the sins of their offenders? They were already said to have this ability in the Lord's Prayer, and Jesus said shortly after:
Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?-Matthew 18:22
And Ruben one of them, said: Did not I say to you: Do not sin against the boy: and you would not hear me? Behold his blood is required.--Genesis 42:22
"If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions."--Matthew 6:14-15It would seem if we were to follow the thought process no one had their sins forgiven since they did not have the Holy Spirit breathed on them.
Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on them to empower them for the work he had commissioned them. God always provides the means when he gives us a mission. This was necessary because this conversation was prior to Pentecost. From Pentecost forward, all believers receive the Holy Spirit at salvation. Jesus gave authority to the Apostles for their time and to establish discipline, not to future church leaders. Jesus breathed on them because he is the source of the Spirit and the power. God alone has the power to forgive sins. He does not need our assistance in forgiving sin. In general church confessions and absolutions, there may be many present that are not truly repentant...are they forgiven of their sins through the called and ordained servant of the Lord? And for the person who is privately repentant and privately asks for God's forgiveness directly, without a called and ordained minister, is he unforgiven? I think not. The vanity of mankind relentlessly twistis God’s free grace, especially when it might elevate one's importance or attach superior powers to one's station. Instead of any man or woman announcing that as a called and ordained servant of God, they are forgiving my or anyone's sins, I believe that a true and intimate understanding of gospel, grace and scripture would demand an all together different liturgy. Since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, even called an ordained ministers, and that we are all so depraved that we are not capable of holiness, even called and ordained ministers, we should be lead in prayers of confession together as one, and drop to our knees in humility and gratitude for the privilege to petition forgiveness with any confidence that we will be met with mercy.
ReplyDeleteyou: Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on them to empower them for the work he had commissioned them. God always provides the means when he gives us a mission.
ReplyDeleteme: I agree
You: "This was necessary because this conversation was prior to Pentecost. "
Me: You said it was part of the mission the apostles were given, and it was before pentecost. Between John 20:23 and Acts 2 about 49 days. What mission work was so important in that 49 day period that it could not wait til Pentecost? The only things that the Scripture tell us happened in the mean time were the Apostles went fishing (John 21) and replace Judas with St Matthias (Acts 1).
You: From Pentecost forward, all believers receive the Holy Spirit at salvation."
Me: Why do you make this assumption? No one can come to faith without the working of the Holy Spirit. "And no man can say the Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost."(1 Cor 12:3). As far as the reception of the Holy Spirit, it comes in different forms, the Apostles received it when they believed and were baptized, again at their ordination in John 20, and seemingly once again at Pentecost.
You: Jesus gave authority to the Apostles for their time and to establish discipline, not to future church leaders.
Me: What does "discipline" mean?
you: Jesus breathed on them because he is the source of the Spirit and the power.
ReplyDeleteMe: Actually God the Father is. (John 14:16) The Spirit is said to "procede" from Christ.
You: God alone has the power to forgive sins.
Me: Yes, ultimately it is God who forgives, however, I am not aware of any verse in the bible that says God *alone* forgives sins, other than the Pharisees questioning Jesus (Matthew 9). Regardless, the ministry of reconciliation is done in the "person of Christ" (2 Cor 2:10), indeed even the sacrament of baptism which forgive sins is done in the Name Of Jesus/the Trinity (Matt 28:20, Acts 2)
You: He does not need our assistance in forgiving sin.
Me: God does not NEED man for anything, He does not need man to pray for another person, yet God does it in Job 42 and Genesis 20. God does not need people speak for Him, yet He had prophets and apostles. God uses man's assistance because "we are God's fellow workers"(1 cor 3:9)
you: In general church confessions and absolutions, there may be many present that are not truly repentant...are they forgiven of their sins through the called and ordained servant of the Lord?
ReplyDeleteMe: No, unrepentent people are NEVER forgiven.
You: And for the person who is privately repentant and privately asks for God's forgiveness directly, without a called and ordained minister, is he unforgiven? I think not.
Me: Yes a person can be forgiven who confession in "private." Whoever, a person confessing in the confessional is essentially confession to Jesus Himself. I am not a fan of the use of the word private since it suggests a separation from the rest of the Church community, it sounds too much like modern day Home Depot do-it-yourself Christianity, where a "personal" relationship with Jesus is emphasised. Even in Judaism a verbal confession is stressed, and ones repentence of sin was often not private, like in the story of the Sinners and the Pharisee, or Numbers 5:5-6/Leviticus 5:5-6. Even, Catholics and Orthodox (I believe some Lutherans and Anglicans have the some view) is that even if a person were to confess their sins at home sincerely, they are forgiven, however, they are still expected to verbally confess to the priest in the Sacrament.
You: The vanity of mankind relentlessly twistis God’s free grace, especially when it might elevate one's importance or attach superior powers to one's station. Instead of any man or woman announcing that as a called and ordained servant of God, they are forgiving my or anyone's sins,
ReplyDeleteMe: I do not see how God's grace is no longer free because an Apostle can forgive sins. Though they are given special powers and status by God, this does not somehow make them "holier than thou" or much greater in a sense of "I'm the king, youre a peasant." However, God does make some with greater role in His Kingdom, like the Prophets and Moses and Aaron, some people did not like this and complained, and God smote them for this (Numbers 16).
You: I believe that a true and intimate understanding of gospel, grace and scripture would demand an all together different liturgy. Since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, even called an ordained ministers, and that we are all so depraved that we are not capable of holiness, even called and ordained ministers, we should be lead in prayers of confession together as one, and drop to our knees in humility and gratitude for the privilege to petition forgiveness with any confidence that we will be met with mercy.
ReplyDeleteMe: Why is a change in liturgy necessary at all? The Current liturgy the presider prays with the whole assembly "as one" the Confiteor (I Confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned...) In fact in the older Tridentine liturgy the priest first made his Confiteor, then the altar servers respond after his confession with "May almighty God be merciful to thee, and forgiving thy sins, bring thee to everlasting life. " Then the altar servers go on to say their Confiteor with the priest answering their confitero with "May almighty God be merciful to us , and forgiving thy sins, bring us to everlasting life"
So I see no need for a different liturgy.
Despite everything said so far, I do not see an explanation as to why the Lord said to the Apostles when He breathed the Spirit on them
ReplyDelete"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
Anyway God bless, I don't check my blog daily, so it might be a while before I read any comments you might make.
"Do not sin against the boy"
ReplyDeleteRoman catholic priests need to read that!
Do you want to actually make a comment relative to the topic, or is making irrelevant comments that have nothing to do with the subject something that shoots off a neuron in your brain?
Delete