Showing posts with label sins. Show all posts
Showing posts with label sins. Show all posts

Monday, August 25, 2025

Esau assuming sins for Israel

Something interesting I found in rabbinical literature, that likely Islam borrowed from rabbis. It suggests sins can be transferred to another person. This passage from midrash says Esau will take on the sins of Israel! The logic is a bit absurd but this is not uncommon, you see similar used to support the righteous dead atoning for sin. Interesting how rabbis speak of the righteous atoning for others sins by their death, and here you see the wicked making atonement for the sins of the more righteous! Yet they some how find the atonement of Christ as wicked, impossible, and unjust!

 First Breshit Rabbah aka Genesis Rabbah, a commentary on the book of Genesis:

וַיֹּאמֶר יַעֲקֹב אֶל רִבְקָה אִמּוֹ הֵן עֵשָׂו אָחִי אִישׁ שָׂעִר (בראשית כז, יא), גְּבַר שֵׁדִין, כְּמָה דְאַתְּ אָמַר (ישעיה יג, כא): וּשְׂעִירִים יְרַקְּדוּ שָׁם, (בראשית כז, יא): וְאָנֹכִי אִישׁ חָלָק, כְּמָה דְאַתְּ אָמַר (דברים לב, ט): כִּי חֵלֶק ה' עַמּוֹ. רַבִּי לֵוִי אָמַר מָשָׁל לְקַוָּץ וְקֵרֵחַ, שֶׁהָיוּ עוֹמְדִין עַל שְׂפַת הַגֹּרֶן, וְעָלָה הַמּוֹץ בַּקַּוָּץ וְנִסְתַּבֵּךְ בִּשְׂעָרוֹ, עָלָה הַמּוֹץ בַּקֵּרֵחַ וְנָתַן יָדוֹ עַל רֹאשׁוֹ וְהֶעֱבִירוֹ. כָּךְ עֵשָׂו הָרָשָׁע מִתְלַכְלֵךְ בַּעֲוֹנוֹת כָּל יְמוֹת הַשָּׁנָה וְאֵין לוֹ בַּמֶּה יְכַפֵּר, אֲבָל יַעֲקֹב מִתְלַכְלֵךְ בַּעֲווֹנוֹת כָּל יְמוֹת הַשָּׁנָה וּבָא יוֹם הַכִּפּוּרִים וְיֶשׁ לוֹ בַּמֶּה יְכַפֵּר, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (ויקרא טז, ל): כִּי בַיּוֹם הַזֶּה יְכַפֵּר. רַבִּי יִצְחָק אָמַר לֹא שָׁאוּל הוּא לָהּ וְלֹא שְׁאוּלָה הִיא לֵיהּ, אֶלָּא (ויקרא טז, כב): וְנָשָׂא הַשָּׂעִיר עָלָיו, זֶה עֵשָׂו, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: הֵן עֵשָׂו אָחִי אִישׁ שָׂעִר. (ויקרא טז, כב): אֶת כָּל עֲוֹנֹתָם, עֲוֹנוֹת תַּם, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (בראשית כה, כז): וְיַעֲקֹב אִישׁ תָּם. (בראשית כז, יב): אוּלַי יְמֻשֵּׁנִי אָבִי וְהָיִיתִי בְעֵינָיו כִּמְתַעְתֵּעַ, כְּמֵת וּכְתוֹעֶה וּכְעוֹבֵד עֲבוֹדַת כּוֹכָבִים. (בראשית כז, יב): וְהֵבֵאתִי עָלַי קְלָלָה וגו', אֲפִלּוּ בְּרָכָה אַחַת שֶׁהוּא עָתִיד לִתֵּן בַּסוֹף אֵינוֹ נוֹתְנָהּ לִי. (בראשית כז, יג): וַתֹּאמֶר לוֹ אִמּוֹ עָלַי קִלְלָתְךָ בְּנִי, רַבִּי אַבָּא בַּר כַּהֲנָא אָמַר אָדָם שֶׁחָטָא לֹא אִמּוֹ נִתְקַלְּלָה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (בראשית ג, יז): אֲרוּרָה הָאֲדָמָה בַּעֲבוּרֶךָ, אַף אַתָּה עָלַי קִלְלָתְךָ בְּנִי. אָמַר רַבִּי יִצְחָק עָלַי לִכָּנֵס וְלוֹמַר לְאָבִיךָ יַעֲקֹב צַדִּיק וְעֵשָׂו רָשָׁע. (בראשית כז, יד): וַיֵּלֶךְ וַיִּקַּח וַיָּבֵא לְאִמּוֹ, אָנוּס וְכָפוּף וּבוֹכֶה.  --Breshit Rabbah 65

Translation:

And Jacob said to Rebecca his mother, "Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man" (Genesis 27:11), a man of demons, as it is said (Isaiah 13:21), "And goats (se’irim) shall dance there." "And I am a smooth man" (Genesis 27:11), as it is said (Deuteronomy 32:9), "For the Lord’s portion is His people." Rabbi Levi said: This is like a hairy man and a bald man standing at the edge of the threshing floor. The chaff rises and gets entangled in the hairy man’s hair, but when it rises to the bald man, he passes his hand over his head and removes it. So too, the wicked Esau becomes defiled with sins all the days of the year and has no means of atonement. But Jacob becomes defiled with sins all the days of the year, and when Yom Kippur comes, he has a means of atonement, as it is written (Leviticus 16:30), "For on this day atonement shall be made for you." Rabbi Yitzchak said: It is not borrowed by him nor lent to him; rather, "The goat shall bear upon it" (Leviticus 16:22)—this is Esau, as it is said, "Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man." "All their iniquities" refers to the iniquities of the innocent (tam), as it is said (Genesis 25:27), "And Jacob was an innocent man." "Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver" (Genesis 27:12), like a dead man, a wanderer, or an idol-worshipper. "And I shall bring a curse upon myself" (Genesis 27:12)—even a single blessing that he is destined to give in the end, he will not give to me. And his mother said to him, "Upon me be your curse, my son" (Genesis 27:13). Rabbi Abba bar Kahana said: When a man sins, it is not his mother who is cursed, as it is said (Genesis 3:17), "Cursed is the ground because of you." So too, "Upon me be your curse, my son." Rabbi Yitzchak said: Upon me to go in and tell your father that Jacob is righteous and Esau is wicked. "And he went, and took, and brought to his mother" (Genesis 27:14)—compelled, bent over, and weeping.--Genesis Rabbah 65:15 (see Hebrew link for a professional translation)

On this passage the following comments are provided by Talmudist Etz Yosef aka Enoch Zundel ben Joseph:

לא שאיל כו'. פרש"י לא המשל הזה שאול לדבר הזה. ולא הדבר הזה שאול הוא למשל. שלפי שהרבה משלים הם שאינם אלא זכר לדבר. ולא עיקר הדבר. לכן קאמר ר"י שמשל זה אינו כשאר משלים שהם רק בשאלה לזכר בעלמא ולא לעיקר. אלא משל זה הוא לעיקר הדבר שהרי מצינו מפורש במעשה יוהכ"פ מענינו של דבר דכתיב ונשא השעיר עליו ואין שעיר אלא עשו ואין תם אלא יעקב: 

AI translation:

"Not borrowed, etc." Rashi explains: This parable is not borrowed for this matter, nor is this matter borrowed for the parable. For many parables are merely a reminder of the matter and not its essence. Therefore, Rabbi Yitzchak says that this parable is not like other parables, which are only borrowed as a mere reminder and not for the essence. Rather, this parable is for the essence of the matter, for we find it explicitly in the act of Yom Kippur regarding the essence of the matter, as it is written, "The goat shall bear upon it" (Leviticus 16:22), and "goat" refers only to Esau, and "innocent" (tam) refers only to Jacob.
Commenting further on this is Yalkut which is commonly cited in rabbinical commentaries quote the Midrash too:

– נוֹטֵל הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא כָּל עֲוֹנוֹתֵיהֶם שֶׁל יִשְׂרָאֵל וְנוֹתְנָן עַל עֵשָׂו הָרָשָׁע, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "וְנָשָׂא הַשָּׂעִיר עָלָיו" – וְאֵין שָׂעִיר אֶלָּא עֵשָׂו, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "הֵן עֵשָׂו אָחִי אִישׁ שָׂעִר". "אֶת כָּל עֲוֹנֹתָם" – אָמַר עֵשָׂו: כַּמָּה כֹּחַ יֵשׁ לִי שֶׁאַתָּה נוֹתֵן עָלַי כָּל עֲוֹנוֹת יַעֲקֹב אָחִי. בְּאוֹתָהּ שָׁעָה נוֹטֵל הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא עֲוֹנוֹתָם וְנוֹתְנוֹ עַל בְּגָדָיו וְנַעֲשׂוּ אֲדֻמִּים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "מַדּוּעַ אָדֹם לִלְבוּשֶׁךָ", יָשַׁב וּמְכַבְּסָן עַד שֶׁנַּעֲשׂוּ לְבָנִים שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "לְבוּשֵׁהּ כִּתְלַג חִוָּר". "אֶל אֶרֶץ גְּזֵרָה" – (כָּתוּב בְּרֶמֶז קט"ו). 

AI translation:

“And the goat shall bear upon itself”—the Holy One, blessed be He, takes all the iniquities of Israel and places them upon Esau the wicked, as it is said: “And the goat shall bear upon itself”—and the goat is none other than Esau, as it is said: “Behold, my brother Esau is a hairy man” (Genesis 27:11). “All their iniquities”—Esau said: How much strength do I have that You place all the iniquities of my brother Jacob upon me? At that moment, the Holy One, blessed be He, takes their iniquities and places them on his garments, and they become red, as it is said: “Why is Your apparel red?” (Isaiah 63:2). He sat and washed them until they became white, as it is said: “His garment was as white as snow” (Daniel 7:9). “To a barren land”—(written in Remez 115).--Yalkut, Remez 576

 The above passage refers to Remez 115 in Yalkut which reads::

אָמַר רַבִּי יִצְחָק, לָא שָׁאִיל הוּא לָהּ וְלָא שְׁאִילָה הִיא לוֹ "וְנָשָׂא הַשָּׂעִיר", זֶה עֵשָׂו עֵשָׂו אָחִי אִישׁ שָׂעִר. "אֶת כָּל עֲוֹנֹתָם", אֶת כָּל עֲוֹנוֹת תָּם (בראשית כה, כז  "וְיַעֲקֹב אִישׁ תָּם". --Yalkut , Remez 115

AI translation:

Rabbi Yitzchak said: He [Esau] is not indebted to him [Jacob], nor is he [Jacob] indebted to him [Esau]. “And the goat (הַשָּׂעִיר) shall bear” (Leviticus 16:21)—this refers to Esau, as it is said: “Esau my brother is a hairy man (אִישׁ שָׂעִר)” (Genesis 27:11). “All their iniquities” (Leviticus 16:21)—[this refers to] all the iniquities of the upright one (תָּם), as it is said: “And Jacob was an upright man (אִישׁ תָּם)” (Genesis 25:27).--Yalkut, Remez 115

Commentary Tirefet Yisrael states:

AI translation:

And when you further understand these two festivals, behold they are both equal. And this is because on Yom Kippur they offer two goats (Leviticus 16:5). And in the Midrash (Bereshit Rabbah 65:14) on the verse, “And fetch me from there two good kids of the goats” (Genesis 27:9)—“good for you, good for your children; good for you, for through them you receive the blessings. And good for your children, for through them atonement is made for them, as it is written (Leviticus 16:30), ‘For on this day shall atonement be made for you’”—end quote. And further in the Midrash, “And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities” (Leviticus 16:22). The Holy One, blessed be He, would take the iniquities of Israel and place them upon Esau, as it is stated (ibid.), “And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities.” And “goat” [se'ir] refers only to Esau, as it is stated (Genesis 27:11), “Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man [ish sa'ir]”—end quote. Behold, the level of Yom Kippur is that He, may He be blessed, would place the punishment of Jacob upon Esau.  And so it is the level of Purim; that which Haman, who was from the seed of Esau, wanted to do to Mordecai, who was from the seed of Jacob—for he desired to destroy him—the Holy One, blessed be He, took and placed upon the seed of Esau, that is Haman, and he was destroyed. And these matters are great and profound, and this is not their place, for we have explained this matter in its proper place.  The general principle is: that by which Israel triumphs over the power of Esau is a supernal level from the upper world. And so too on Yom Kippur, the triumph over Samael, who is the power of Esau, is, as is clarified from the words of the sages, above this world. And therefore they said that Purim and Yom Kippur will not pass away nor be nullified, for these two [festivals] are the nullification of the power of Esau that came into the world, as has been explained. And since their level is from the upper world, they have no nullification, even in the time of the Resurrection, when the matters of this world will be nullified. And this is not considered a nullification of the Torah, as was explained above (see end of chapter 52), for the world of the Resurrection is a different order, and God, may He be blessed, ordered the world according to what is fitting for the world. But that the Torah should be nullified completely—this matter is not so, for the reason that was explained before this (there), for the Torah encompasses everything, as they said (Avot 5:22), “Turn it over and over for everything is in it”—even the order of the Resurrection. And therefore the attainment of the Torah is forever and for all eternity. --Tiferet Yisrael 53:4-5

 This is part of a broader discussion on what parts of the Torah will be perpetual and what might be nullified.

Another appearance is in Drashot Maharal, Drush L'Shabbat HaGadol by Judah Loew of Prague (Maharal):

ובמדרש (ילקו"ש ב', תק"ו) ונשא השעיר עליו את כל עונותם אל ארץ גזרה נוטל הקב"ה עונותיהם של ישראל ונותנן על עשו הרשע שנאמר ונשא השעיר עליו ואין שעיר אלא עשו שנאמר הן עשו אחי איש שעיר את כל עונותם אמר עשו מה כח יש לי שאתה נותן לי עונות יעקב אחי באותה שעה נוטל הקב"ה את כל עונותם ונותנם על בגדיו ונעשים אדומים שנאמר מדוע אדום ללבושך יושב ומכבסן עד שנעשים לבנים שנאמר לבושיה כתלג חיור. ויש לדקדק למה נותן את כל עונותם על עשו ולמה נותנן על לבושו. אבל יראה כי הם הם הדברים אשר אמרנו למעלה, כי חטא ישראל הוא מצד יצה"ר אשר מתגרה בישראל ועשו וזרעו הן הן יצה"ר של ישראל, ובבטול האומה הזאת מן העולם אז יתבטל יצה"ר מישראל. ורמז זה הכתוב הן עשו אחי איש שעי"ר במספרו היצר הרע, ואין ספק כי יעקב ועשו הם נגד יצר טוב ויצה"ר כאשר ידוע למבינים, ולכך אמר שנתן חטא יעקב על עשו. שכבר אמרנו כי יעקב הוא טהור וקדוש מצד עצמו רק שהחטאים הם באים מבחוץ על יעקב מצד היצה"ר, ולכך נותן החטאים על עשו אחיו. ואומר עשו מה כח יש לי כו', ר"ל כי אין דבר גירוי בישראל הזה מכח עשו רק כי כך גזר הקב"ה. ואמר שנותנן על לבושיו, כי המדות שהוא יתעלה מתלבש בהן נקרא מלבוש שלו, ולכך נותן חטא ישראל על מלבושיו, ואומר שיושב הקב"ה ומכבס לבושו, כי הוא יתעלה מקוה טהור ----ומטהר ומסלק החטא עמו שאמרנו:

AI translation:

In the Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni, Part 2, 506), regarding "The goat shall bear upon it all their iniquities to a remote land" (Leviticus 16:22), the Holy One, blessed be He, takes the sins of Israel and places them upon the wicked Esau, as it is written, "The goat shall bear upon it," and "goat" refers only to Esau, as it is said, "Behold, my brother Esau is a hairy man" (Genesis 27:11). "All their iniquities"—Esau says, "What power do I have that you give me the sins of my brother Jacob?" At that moment, the Holy One, blessed be He, takes all their iniquities and places them upon his garments, and they become red, as it is said, "Why is your apparel red?" (Isaiah 63:2). He sits and washes them until they become white, as it is said, "His garments are white as snow" (cf. Daniel 7:9). 

It is worth examining why He places all their iniquities upon Esau and why upon his garments. It seems that this aligns with what we said earlier: the sin of Israel comes from the evil inclination (yetzer hara) that incites Israel, and Esau and his descendants are themselves the evil inclination of Israel. With the nullification of this nation from the world, the evil inclination will be nullified from Israel. This is hinted at in the verse, "Behold, my brother Esau is a hairy man (ish sa’ir)," where "sa’ir" numerically equals "yetzer hara" (evil inclination). There is no doubt that Jacob and Esau correspond to the good inclination (yetzer tov) and the evil inclination (yetzer hara), as is known to those who understand. Therefore, it is said that the sin of Jacob is placed upon Esau. As we have already stated, Jacob is pure and holy by his nature, and sins come to him externally through the evil inclination. Thus, the sins are placed upon his brother Esau. Esau says, "What power do I have?"—meaning that there is no incitement in Israel from Esau’s power, but rather it is so decreed by the Holy One, blessed be He. It says that He places them upon his garments, for the attributes through which He, may He be exalted, manifests are called His garments. Therefore, the sins of Israel are placed upon His garments, and it says that the Holy One, blessed be He, sits and washes His garments, for He is the pure mikveh (ritual bath) that purifies and removes the sin, as we have said.--Drashot Maharal, Drush L'Shabbat HaGadol: Drush Al Hamitzvot 48

Jewish commentator RaMBaN (not to be confused with RaMBaM) says:

Now Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra wrote: “Said Rav Shmuel: ‘Although it is [only] with reference to the goat of the sin-offering that it is written [explicitly] that it was for the Eternal, the goat which was sent away [to Azazel] was also for the Eternal.’ But there is no need for this [comment]. For the goat which was sent away was not an “offering’ since it was not slaughtered. Now if you can understand the secret of the word after ‘Azazel,’ you will know its secret [that of Azazel] and the secret of its name, since it has companions in Scripture. And I will reveal to you part of the secret by hint: when you will be at thirty-three you will know it.” [Thus far are the words of Ibn Ezra]. Now of Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra it may be said that he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth a matter, and I will not be the talebearer who revealeth his secret, since our Rabbis of blessed memory have already revealed it in many places. Thus they have said in Bereshith Rabbah: And the ‘sa’ir’ shall carry upon him, this is a reference to Esau, as it is said, Behold, Esau my brother is a man who is ‘sa’ir’ (hairy). All ‘avonotham’ (their iniquities), [read]: ‘avonoth tam’ (the sins of him who has been called tam, ‘a man of integrity’), as it is said, and Jacob was a man ‘tam’ (‘of integrity’).” It is explained more clearly in the Chapters of the great Rabbi Eliezer: “The reason why they would give Sammael [i.e., Satan] a conciliatory gift on the Day of Atonement, was so that he should not annul [the effect of] their offerings, as it is said, one lot for the Eternal, and the other lot for Azazel, the lot of the Holy One, blessed by He, to be a burnt-offering, and the lot of Azazel to be ‘the goat of sin,’ bearing upon it all the iniquities of Israel, as it is said, And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities--Ramban on Leviticus 16:8:1

Here RaMBaN tells you all you need to know even the history of keeping this secret.

Still another:

When you consider all that we have written and quoted on this subject you will be convinced that there most certainly cannot be a question of the scapegoat being an offering, a sacrifice to a Satanic force called Azzazel. All strife, war, etc., in the world have their origin in that domain where Satan-Se'ir, the other name for Esau and the negative character traits he symbolizes, reign supreme. This is the force which welcomes this scapegoat laden with sin. All goats, both male and female, are part of his domain. The nearest “relative” of this Satan-Samael-Azzazel is Esau and the nation descended from it. Esau already bore the name שעיר, a hairy man, as the antithesis of Yaakov the “smooth” man. The land in which he settled was named after him, and when pagans used to offer sacrifices to the שעירים, the he-goats, representing brute physical force and obstinacy, this was their way of paying homage to the ideals represented by Esau.--Rabbeinu Bahya, Vayikra 16:7:7

 Another:

According to the Mishna, a red thread was tied to the scapegoat, and “red” (Edom) was Esau’s other name. So there was a tradition that the scapegoat in some way symbolised Esau. Azazel, the mysterious place or entity for which the goat was intended, was Samael, Esau’s guardian angel.--Covenant and Conversation; Leviticus; The Book of Holiness, Achrei Mot, Thinking Fast and Slow 5

Another medieval rabbi vague alludes: 

ויאמר יעקב אל רבקה אמו הן עשו אחי איש שעיר ואנכי איש חלק. בראשית רבה איש שעיר. כמה דאת אמר ושעירים ירקדו שם (ישעיה יג כא). ואנכי איש חלק כמה דאת אמר כי חלק יי' עמו. וממה שרמזנו למעלה בענין יעקב ועשו תבין זה. וסוד גדיי העזים והמטעמים נרמוז בענין יום הכפורים בגזירת האל. ויונתן תרגם ויבא לו יין וישת ואזדמן ליה מלאכא דיי' ואייתי מן חמרא דאצנע בעינבוי מן יומי שירוי עלמא ויהביה ביד יעקב ויעקב אמטי ליה לאבוי לאכול ושתי:

AI translation: 

And Jacob said to Rebecca his mother, "Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man" (Genesis 27:11). In Bereshit Rabbah (65:14): "A hairy man"—as it is said, "And goats (se’irim) shall dance there" (Isaiah 13:21). "And I am a smooth man"—as it is said, "For the Lord’s portion is His people" (Deuteronomy 32:9). And from what we hinted at earlier regarding the matter of Jacob and Esau, you will understand this. The secret of the kids of the goats and the delicacies will be hinted at in the matter of Yom Kippur, by the decree of God.--Recanati on the Torah

He largely told the reader Esau = goat.

Finally, a modern rabbi A.L. Scheinbaum of Cleveland comments,

"The Yalkut cites what seems to be a Midrash Pliah, a Midrash whose rationale eludes us...In his Tiferes Yonasan, Horav Yonasan Eibshutz, zl, wonders why Eisav has to be the receptacle for Jewish sin... When Klal Yisrael's sins are brought before the Heavenly Tribunal to be prosecuted, the angel Gavriel comes forward to defend them. "Ribono Shel Olam," he begins, "All of these transgressions are really the fault of Eisav haRasha. The Jewish people are no more than students of his evil ways. Perhaps they might be called good students, but students no less. Therefore, the sins of Your people should be placed on Eisav's head, for he is to blame."--Peninim on the Torah, Parashas Acharei Mos, p 209-210

I have not been able to find the passage as Scheinbaum describe it, perhaps he embellished it, or as a document I cannot find!

As you can see, the Rabbis have no problem with Esau, a human, bearing and taking away the sins of Israel! 

Sunday, June 14, 2020

Did King David know about imputed righteousness?

A common Reformed doctrine is the view that a man is justified by God imputing (considering by merely declaring) a man righteous. He will not make the wicked man righteous, the man might still not be capable of doing anything good beyond faith, but God will pretend the man is righteousness nonetheless by cloaking the sinner He selected with the righteousness of Christ. Essentially creating a white washed sepulcher of a saint.

To support this concept of imputed righteousness many point to Romans 4:7-8
“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”--Romans 4:7-8
It is supposed that because a man's sins are not 'counted against', or 'imputed to him' it means righteousness was imputed instead. This is important since this is quote the Old Testament, which would suggest justification in the Old Testament was similar to, if not the same as, in the New Testament.

Romans 4:7-8 is quoting Psalm 32:1-2:
 Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
    whose sin the Lord does not count against them
    and in whose spirit is no deceit.--Psalm 32:1-2
This was in reference to the sin with Bathsheba
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” 
Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”-- 2 Samuel 12:13-14

Some Protestants will point to the wording here. David is not directly begging for forgiveness, he does not say "forgive me, Lord" but instead "I have sinned against the LORD," they then claim the grammar implies David was forgiven before he repented which is why Nathan said, "The Lord has taken away your sin." They say 'has' means the LORD did it before the incident (possibly even from the minute he was regenerated). Though, it is much more likely Nathan was saying God forgave David the moment he acknowledged his sin, which was just then in the past by seconds to the time Nathan said God "has taken away your sin."

If
this be the case that David had his sin forgiven from the time he was regenerate, long before the affair Bathsheba, and David is told about imputed righteousness, then why does David beg for forgiveness from the LORD much later for the census:
And David said unto the LORD: 'I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, O LORD, put away, I beseech You, the iniquity* of Your servant; for I have done very foolishly.'--2 Samuel 24:10 
*Some may object by using translations that read 'guilt' instead of 'iniquity', it is actually עֲוֺן  'avon which is usually translated "iniquity"--a major sin. In fact, the verse the doctrine revolves around Romans 4:8 is quoting Psalm 32:2 which uses the same exact word--עֲוֺן  'avon. Yet, we see in 2 Samuel 24:10, King David has to ask God to remove his 'avon.


Let's compare verses:

And David said to the LORD: 'I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, O LORD, put away, I beg You, the iniquity [עֲוֺן 'avon] of Your servant; for I have done very foolishly.' --2 Samuel 24:10

וַיֹּאמֶר דָּוִד אֶל-יְהוָה, חָטָאתִי מְאֹד אֲשֶׁר עָשִׂיתִי, וְעַתָּה יְהוָה הַעֲבֶר-נָא אֶת-עֲוֺן עַבְדְּךָ, כִּי נִסְכַּלְתִּי מְאֹד. 

with:

Happy is the man unto whom the LORD counts not iniquity [עָוֺן 'avon], and in whose spirit there is no guile.--Psalm 32:2
 אַשְׁרֵי אָדָם--לֹא יַחְשֹׁב יְהוָה לוֹ עָוֺן;    וְאֵין בְּרוּחוֹ רְמִיָּה

and again,
And David spoke to the LORD when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said: 'Lo, I have sinned, and I have done iniquitously; but these sheep, what have they done? let Your hand, I pray You, be against me, and against my father's house.'--2 Samuel 24:17
also repeated in
 And David said to God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beg You, do away the iniquity of Your servant; for I have done very foolishly.--1 Chronicles 21:8
 "I beg you, take away the guilt"--this does not sound like the words of a man that knew about imputed righteousness. David begged God to only punish him and his family, not the entire nation. Was David asking God to impute sin to him and his own family by the Reformed's reasoning?  The fact that David begged for forgiveness makes it clear he believed God did impute the sin to him for the period of time he was impenitent.

Let us also compare the words used to expression forgiveness used in 2 Samuel 12 vs 2 Samuel 24's episode, we see the word "put away" or "pass" is used in both.
And David said unto Nathan: 'I have sinned against the LORD.'  And Nathan said unto David: 'The LORD also hath put away [הֶעֱבִיר he'evir] thy sin; thou shalt not die. --2 Samuel 12:13 
וַיֹּאמֶר דָּוִד אֶל-נָתָן, חָטָאתִי לַיהוָה;  וַיֹּאמֶר נָתָן אֶל-דָּוִד, גַּם-יְהוָה הֶעֱבִיר חַטָּאתְךָ--לֹא תָמוּת. 
Now see the word used in 2 Samuel 24:10:
And David said unto the LORD: 'I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, O LORD, put away [הַעֲבֶר ha'aver], I beseech Thee, the iniquity of Thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.' --2 Samuel 24:10 
וַיֹּאמֶר דָּוִד אֶל-יְהוָה, חָטָאתִי מְאֹד אֲשֶׁר עָשִׂיתִי, וְעַתָּה יְהוָה הַעֲבֶר-נָא אֶת-עֲוֺן עַבְדְּךָ, כִּי נִסְכַּלְתִּי מְאֹד.
Both are H5674 in Strong's Concordance (note a concordance is not a lexicon) just used in different forms.

2 Samuel 24 and 2 Samuel 12 both use the same word but in use chapter 12 to inform David he as been forgiven, and chapter 24 to beg God to forgive David. Since 2 Samuel 12 is being commented on by Psalm 32, which is about not imputing iniquity, forgiving sins, etc. it would follow even more so that David did not believe he was permanently justified/forgiven before God irrespective of his conduct.

It is pretty obvious David is saying God did not count his iniquity once David confessed his sin. This is made even more obvious reading the rest of the Psalm:
When I kept silence, my bones wore away through my groaning all the day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;  my sap was turned as in the droughts of summer. Selah I acknowledged my sin unto You, and my iniquity have I not hid; I said: 'I will make confession concerning my transgressions to the LORD'-- and You, You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah--Psalm 32:3-5
He was silent...that David did not confess his sin, so he groaned about his condition.

The hand of the Lord was heavy--God pushing him to repent for his sin against God.

I acknowledged my sin......I will make confession concerning my transgressions...and Thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin"....That is to say--David sinned, David repented, and God took away David's iniquity at this point.

It is clear that David was not "imputed" with his sin as a result of his confession of the sin, not because he was already forgiven a long time in advance. King David who some suppose taught imputed righteousness, sure seemed to lack confidence in his security of salvation due to his moral failings. David certainly was not Luther who believed in a Christian as being simultaneously being a saint and a sinner.

However, when you string together a system based in part on the unbiblical doctrine of Penal Substitutionary Atonement, such hoop jumping becomes routine, necessary, and inevitable.


Tuesday, July 1, 2014

Answering Dispensationalism: "Remission"

This will be an expanding of a Question and Answer page from an older post on here:

Claim: When the Bible says baptism is for the remission of sins, it does not mean forgiveness, it means remission in the sense cancer can be in remission.

A7. The ENGLISH word remission can mean both forgiveness and the alternate meaning. Dispensationalists try to make a doctrine of splitting what they call the Kingdom Gospel and the "Grace" Gospel, out of the KJV's inconsistent translation of a Greek word. They believe St Paul was the first "revealed" the "grace" Gospel. Forgiveness/pardon is the meaning when dealing with sins. Here is the origin of the word remission itself:
early 13c., "forgiveness or pardon (of sins)," from O.Fr. remission, from L. remissionem (nom. remissio) "relaxation, a sending back," from remiss-, pp. stem of remittere "slacken, let go, abate" (see remit). Used of diseases since c.1400. 
But, this is not so helpful since this is just a translation of the Greek. The Greek word used in Acts 2:38 that bibles like the King James Version and the Douay Rheims for what the translation as "remission" is ἄφεσιν . ἄφεσιν simple means to let something go.
 

A. [select] letting go, release, περὶ τῆς τῶν πλοίων ἀφέσεως Philipp. ap. D.18.77, cf. Pl.Plt.273c; “καρπῶνPAmh.2.43.9 (ii B. C.); γῆ ἐν ἀφέσει land in private hands, opp. βασιλική, PTeb. 5.37 (ii B. C.), etc.

b. [select] of persons, dismissal: in ritual, “λαοῖς .Apul.Met.11.17; release, Plb.1.79.12, IG2.314.21, Ev.Luc.4.18.

2. [select] c. gen., . φόνου quittance from murder, Pl.Lg.869d: so abs., Hermog.Stat.8; discharge from a bond, D.33.3; “. ἐναντίον μαρτύρων ποιήσασθαιId.45.41; opp. ἀπόδοσις χρημάτων, Isoc.17.29; exemption from attendance, leave of absence, Arist.Ath.30.6; . τῆς στρατείας exemption from service, Plu.Ages.24; remission of a debt, “ταλάντουMichel1340B7 (Cnidus, ii B. C.); “χρημάτωνIPE12.32B70 (Olbia, iii B. C.); sc. καταδίκης, Inscr.Magn.93c16.

b. [select] forgiveness, Ev. Marc.3.29; “ἁμαρτιῶνEv.Matt.26.28.

3. [select] relaxation, exhaustion, Hp.Epid.3.6.


5. [select] starting of horses in a race, “ἵππων . ποιεῖνD.S.4.73: hence, starting-post itself, ἰσώσας τἀφέσει (Musgr. for τῇ φύσει τὰ τέρματα having made the winning-post one with the starting-post, i.e. having completed the δίαυλος and come back to the starting-post, dub. cj. in S.El.686, cf. Paus.5.15.5, 6.20.9: metaph., the first start, beginning of anything, Man.3.405, etc.

6. [select] discharge, emission,ὕδατοςArist.PA 697a24; “βέλουςD.S.17.41; “τοῦ θοροῦ, τοῦ ᾠοῦArist.GA756a12; “τοῦ κυήματοςId.HA608a1; the dropping of a foal, ib.576a25.

b. [select] discharge, release of an engine, Ph.Bel.58.24.
7. [select] = ἀφεσμός, Arist.HA 625a20 (pl.).
8. [select] release,ὕδατοςPPetr.2p.34 (iii B. C.): hence, in concrete sense, conduit, sluice, ib.3p.88, PFlor.388.44 (iii A. D.): pl., “ἀφέσεις θαλάσσηςchannels, LXX 2 Ki.22.16.

9. [select] Astrol., reckoning of the vital quadrant, Ptol.Tetr.127, cf. Vett.Val.136.2 (but ἀπὸ Λέοντος τὴν ἄφεσιν ποιούμενοι, simply, starting from . . , Id.31.8).
 
 Mark 3:29 uses this Greek word in the sense the eternal sin can never be "forgiven" it would not make much sense if this eternal sin were only suppressed or whatever other secondary sense exist in English. In fact the King James Version translates ἄφεσιν  as "forgiven" a few times Acts 5:31, 13:38, 26:18, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14. It means forgiven.

Let us go through the 17 times in 16 verses in the New Testament ἄφεσιν is used with a comparison of the KJV with how it is used, the Greek will following the Byzantine
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission [ἄφεσιν] of sins.-- Matthew 26:28
τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου, τὸ τῆς καινῆς διαθήκης, τὸ περὶ πολλῶν ἐκχυνόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. --Matthew 26:28
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission  [ἄφεσιν] of sins.-- Mark 1:4
Ἐγένετο Ἰωάννης βαπτίζων ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, καὶ κηρύσσων βάπτισμα μετανοίας εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. --Mark 1:4
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness [ἄφεσιν], but is in danger of eternal damnation:-- Mark 3:29

ὃς δ' ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλ' ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου κρίσεως. --Mark 3:29

To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission [ἀφέσει] of their sins,-- Luke 1:77
τοῦ δοῦναι γνῶσιν σωτηρίας τῷ λαῷ αὐτοῦ ἐν ἀφέσει ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν, --Luke 1:77
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission [ἄφεσιν] of sins;-- Luke 3:3
Καὶ ἦλθεν εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν περίχωρον τοῦ Ἰορδάνου, κηρύσσων βάπτισμα μετανοίας εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν· --Luke 3:3

The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance [ἄφεσιν] to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty [ἀφέσει] them that are bruised,-- Luke 4:18

Πνεῦμα κυρίου ἐπ' ἐμέ, οὗ εἵνεκεν ἔχρισέν με εὐαγγελίσασθαι πτωχοῖς· ἀπέσταλκέν με ἰάσασθαι τοὺς συντετριμμένους τὴν καρδίαν· κηρύξαι αἰχμαλώτοις ἄφεσιν, καὶ τυφλοῖς ἀνάβλεψιν, ἀποστεῖλαι τεθραυσμένους ἐν ἀφέσει, --Luke 4:18
And that repentance and remission [ἄφεσιν] of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.-- Luke 24:47
καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν καὶ ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἀρξάμενον ἀπὸ Ἱερουσαλήμ. --Luke 24:47
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission [ἄφεσιν] of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.--Acts 2:38
Πέτρος δὲ ἔφη πρὸς αὐτούς, Μετανοήσατε, καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, καὶ λήψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος. --Acts 2:38
Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness [ἄφεσιν] of sins.--Acts 5:31

Τοῦτον ὁ θεὸς ἀρχηγὸν καὶ σωτῆρα ὕψωσεν τῇ δεξιᾷ αὐτοῦ, δοῦναι μετάνοιαν τῷ Ἰσραὴλ καὶ ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. --Acts 5:31

 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission [ἄφεσιν] of sins.--Acts 10:43

 Τούτῳ πάντες οἱ προφῆται μαρτυροῦσιν, ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν λαβεῖν διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ πάντα τὸν πιστεύοντα εἰς αὐτόν. --Acts 10:43

 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness [ἄφεσις] of sins:-- Acts 13:38


Γνωστὸν οὖν ἔστω ὑμῖν, ἄνδρες ἀδελφοί, ὅτι διὰ τούτου ὑμῖν ἄφεσις ἁμαρτιῶν καταγγέλλεται· --Acts 13:38

To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins [ἄφεσιν], and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.—Acts 26:18

ἀνοῖξαι ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτῶν, τοῦ ὑποστρέψαι ἀπὸ σκότους εἰς φῶς καὶ τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ Σατανᾶ ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, τοῦ λαβεῖν αὐτοὺς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, καὶ κλῆρον ἐν τοῖς ἡγιασμένοις πίστει τῇ εἰς ἐμέ. --Acts 26:18

 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness [ἄφεσιν] of sins, according to the riches of his grace-- Ephesians 1:7


ἐν ᾧ ἔχομεν τὴν ἀπολύτρωσιν διὰ τοῦ αἵματος αὐτοῦ, τὴν ἄφεσιν τῶν παραπτωμάτων, κατὰ τὸν πλοῦτον τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ, --Ephesians 1:7

 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness [ἄφεσιν] of sins:--Colossians 1:14
ἐν ᾧ ἔχομεν τὴν ἀπολύτρωσιν, τὴν ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν· --Colossians 1:14

 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission [ἄφεσις].-- Hebrews 9:22

Καὶ σχεδὸν ἐν αἵματι πάντα καθαρίζεται κατὰ τὸν νόμον, καὶ χωρὶς αἱματεκχυσίας οὐ γίνεται ἄφεσις. --Hebrews 9:22
 
 Now where remission [ἄφεσις] of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.-- Hebrews 10:18
We see here that of the 17 times this Greek word is used in the KJV 1611 translates it as follows:
Remission--9 times: Matthew 26:28, Mark 1:4, Luke 1:77, Luke 3:3, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, Hebrews 9:22, Hebrews 10:18 
Forgiveness--6 times: Mark 3:29, Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14 
Liberty--1 time: Luke 4:18 
Deliverance--1 time: Luke 4:18
In every instance its translated as remission or forgiveness--the context is the same--sin.  How could the KJV writers tell the difference between a "remission" or "forgiveness" in the mind of a dispensationalist?  Furthermore, Matthew 26:28 has Jesus dying for the REMISSION of sins! Furthermore, even though ἄφεσις is not used in Romans 3:25, Romans 3:25 in the KJV has "remission" being used by the person that Dispensationalists allege was given "another gospel" that is not supposed to be one of "remission of sins" but "forgiveness of sins."

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God--Romans 3:25
Also, we see "forgiveness" not just "remission" did occur before St Paul as in Acts 5:31 where St Peter was preaching:

Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness [ἄφεσιν] of sins.--Acts 5:31