Did Jesus drink the Cup of God's wrath in the Garden?

Before Christ was arrested by the Romans, He prayed in the garden asking that the "cup" pass from Him:

AV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].

AV Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

AV Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 

John's gospel makes a separate mention of the cup shortly after the Roman authorities appear:

AV John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Calvinists, as supporting evidence for Penal Substitutionary Atonement, claim the symbolic cup Jesus said He would drink from  is the Wrath of God (appealing to the book of Revelation 14:10's, and a few Old Testament references mentioning of a cup of wrath). However, when understanding the cup, we should look to Matthew's gospel itself. We see the mention of cup--ποτηριον occurs 7 times in the gospel narration:

AV Mt 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

AV Mt 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 

AV Mt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father. 

AV Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 

AV Mt 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 

AV Mt 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 

AV Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. 

AV Mt 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Since Jesus is speaking poetically, not about an actual cup in Matthew 26:37-42, we can rule out the mention of a literal cup like Matthew 10:42, 26:27. Since, Jesus is using a cup for a different purpose in Matthew 23:25-26, that is to say he is using it as an analogy of how the Pharisee are clean externally but inwardly dirty, we can remove this as matching the cup Jesus worried about drinking from.  This leaves us with only Matthew 20:22-23 left. The story is to tell the disciples the only way they will be exalted is to humble themselves, masters must become servants. When He talks about drinking of the cup, in another gospels he also adds they must be baptized with the baptism he will be baptized with.

They said to him, “We can.” Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink, you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized;--Mark 10:39

Luke's gospel mentioning this baptism says:

There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!--Luke 12:50 

This last mention of anguish is like the anguish described in Matthew 26 while praying in the garden before His executioners arrived, as we read:

He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death--Matthew 26:37-38

Furthermore, it is interesting that it was the sons of Zebedee that asked said they would drink of the same cup as Christ, and in Matthew 26:37 it says three disciples were asked to wait as Jesus prayer: Peter and the sons of Zebedee. Perhaps, He wanted them to have a first hand glimpse of the cup? James would later die in Acts 12 as a martyr, John would be the only Apostle not to die a martyr's death though tradition says he would be boiled alive and live. Peter, the chief apostle, would be told by Christ in John 21 he will be crucified, as tradition says he was in Rome.

Returning to the issue of Reformed theology, how can the cup of Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42 be the wrath of God if two of the Apostle drank from the same cup? The answer is simple. The cup is not the wrath of God. It is a cup that represents suffering and sorrow--they would suffer at the hands of the very people they wanted to help. 

However, what do Reformed apologists do to avoid this treasured piece of evidence from being discounted as evidence that Jesus drank the cup of wrath? Say it the same but different cup:

"Christ was not indicating that James and John would atone for the sins of others—the grammar of His original question makes it impossible for Him to agree that the disciples could offer atonement. Instead, Jesus was pointing to the fact that in a sense, they would share in the ordeal Christ was about to undergo in Jerusalem. In other words, they would not escape suffering for the name of Jesus."--Ligonier.org "The Cup that Jesus drinks"

While admitting they are the same cup, in order to avoid the logical sacrilege implied by mere human apostles drinking the same cup of wrath, they say it means something else--that they would also suffer for Christ.

Premise 1: Jesus would drink a cup.
Premise 2: Two apostles were told they would drink the same cup.
Premise 3: Apostles cannot suffer the wrath of God as in the sense Calvinists suppose Christ suffered.
Conclusion: The cup was not the cup of wrath, therefore Matthew 26:42 cannot be used as support for penal substitution.

Did St Augustine become a Calvinist in his last years

Once again the same anti-Catholics mentioned in my previous article about baptism in Judaism, accuse me of lying, this time about St Augustine--insisting he adopted in his final years the Calvinistic view that salvation cannot be lost.

Here is St Augustine in AD 428/429 (1-2 years before his death in AD 430) said

But, lest perchance it be said that perseverance even to the end is not indeed lost when it has once been given—that is, when a man has persevered unto the end—but that it is lost, in some sense, when a man by contumacy so acts that he is not able to attain to it; just as we say that a man who has not persevered unto the end has lost eternal life or the kingdom of God, not because he had already received and actually had it, but because he would have received and had it if he had persevered; — let us lay aside controversies of words, and say that some things even which are not possessed, but are hoped to be possessed, may be lost.--St Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Book II: On the Gift of Perseverance, Chapter 11

Let the inquirer still go on, and say, "Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end?" Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us." [1 John 2:19] Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure. For that which the apostle says, checks many from mischievous elation: "Wherefore let him who seems to stand take heed lest he fall." [1 Corinthians 10:12] But he who falls, falls by his own will, and he who stands, stands by God's will. "For God is able to make him stand;" [Romans 14:4] therefore he is not able to make himself stand, but God. Nevertheless, it is good not to be high-minded, but to fear. Moreover, it is in his own thought that every one either falls or stands. Now, as the apostle says, and as I have mentioned in my former treatise, "We are not sufficient to think anything of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God." [2 Corinthians 3:5] Following whom also the blessed Ambrose ventures to say, "For our heart is not in our own power, nor are our thoughts." And this everybody who is humbly and truly pious feels to be most true.--St Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Book II: On the Gift of Perseverance, Chapter 12

What else is interesting about this treatise is St Augustine uses many of the popular Calvinist proof text without coming to the Calvinist conclusions, and uses 1 John 2:19 and interprets it to refer to the elect and non elect, whereas Calvinists generally read it as false converts and true Christians. 

The following is St Augustine in AD 427, 3 years before his death:

It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children— whom He has regenerated in Christ— to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also, when to children of another He forgives such wickedness, and, by the bestowal of His grace, makes them His own children. Who would not wonder at this? Who would not be exceedingly astonished at this?--St Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, Chapter 19

This is perhaps the most explicit denial of Calvinism in the later writings of St Augustine, saying some are "REGENERATED" and "His own children" yet NOT GIVEN PERSERVERANCE.

Here is St Augustine in AD 427 (3 years before his death in 430) writing to Boniface, a man whom St Augustine fears may have or may lose salvation by sins:

What shall I say regarding these evils— so patent to all, and so great in magnitude as well as number— of which you have been, directly or indirectly, the cause since the time of your being married? You are a Christian, you have a conscience, you fear God; consider, then, for yourself some things which I prefer to leave unsaid, and you will find for how great evils you ought to do penance; and I believe that it is to afford you an opportunity of doing this in the way in which it ought to be done, that the Lord is now sparing you and delivering you from all dangers.--St Augustine, (AD 427) Letter 220 Paragraph 5

This paragraph 5 where St Augustine states to Boniface, he is a Christian, so any Calvinist ideas of tares, cannot be read in.

Nevertheless, I would not wish you to belong to the number of those wicked and unjust men whom God uses as instruments in inflicting temporal punishments on whom He pleases; for He who justly employs their malice to inflict temporal judgments on others, reserves eternal punishments for the unjust themselves if they be not reformed. Be it yours to fix your thoughts on God, and to look to Christ, who has conferred on you so great blessings and endured for you so great sufferings.--Letter 220 Paragraph 8

St Augustine here expresses his hope Boniface does not became one of the unjust that are hellbound.

But if you consult me regarding your relation to God and the salvation of your soul, and if you fear the word of truth which says: "What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" [Matthew 16:26] I have a plain answer to give. I am prepared with advice to which you may well give heed. But what need is there for my saying anything else than what I have already said. "Love not the world, neither the things, that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides forever." [1 John 2:15-17] Here is counsel! Seize it and act on it. Show that you are a brave man. Vanquish the desires with which the world is loved. Do penance for the evils of your past life, when, vanquished by your passions, you were drawn away by sinful desires. If you receive this counsel, and hold it fast, and act on it, you will both attain to those blessings which are certain, and occupy yourself in the midst of these uncertain things without forfeiting the salvation of your soul.--Letter 220 Paragraph 9

St Augustine plainly warned him not to forfeit salvation by loving the things of the world!

Finally, lets see St Augustine's view of works and salvation--had a modern Catholic stated this a Calvinist or Baptist would scream "works based!":

For who is so ignorant, who so foolish, as not to see that the health of this mortal body, and the strength of its corruptible members, and victory over men who are our enemies, and temporal honours and power, and all other mere earthly advantages are given both to the good and to the bad, and are taken away both from the good and from the bad alike? But the salvation of the soul, along with immortality of the body, and the power of righteousness, and victory over hostile passions, and glory, and honour, and everlasting peace, are not given except to the good. Therefore love these things, covet these things, and seek them by every means in your power. With a view to acquire and retain these things, give alms, pour forth prayers, practise fasting as far as you can without injury to your body. But do not love these earthly goods, how much soever they may abound to you. So use them as to do many good things by them, but not one evil thing for their sake. For all such things will perish; but good works, yea, even those good works which are performed by means of the perishable good things of this world, shall never perish.--Letter 220 Paragraph 11

Here St Augustine states "retain these things," referring to the previous sentence, which included salvation.  Calvinism has no place for telling someone to "retain" salvation.  Also, notice St Augustine claims these things are given ONLY to the "good."

Certainly, there is much more that can be said about St Augustine and his view of salvation. This should suffice to show St Augustine did not magically convert a Calvinistic view of perserverance of the saints in his later life.

Matt Slick's Jesus is a cheater

A few weeks ago I was debating Matt Slick and other antiCatholics (who were Calvinists) about the atonement. I accused the Calvinist Jesus with getting off easy by paying the penalty of multiple eternities (in Hell) of the elects' sin in less than 3 days, Matt Slick answer sounded like Jesus cheated or was dishonest saying, it is due to the communication idiomatio, meaning to him whatever you say of one nature can be said of the other, ie in this case, although he suffered for a finite period as a man, because He is also God, He can have been considered to have suffered forever since God is eternal. (something along these lines) To me this sounds like their Jesus cheated. as if he said "I knew this was only a few hours, but let's call this forever and go to heaven."

But I have to give Matt credit, so far he has been the ONLY Calvinist to explain who Jesus paid the eternal damnation of the elect in a finite period of time--Jesus had to cheat, it is certainly more clever than the standard Calvinist response that "it is a mystery, God has not given this informtion to us." I have also contacted catholicnick on this matter, seeing as how he enjoys discussing the Calvinist atonement.

Each Shall die for his own sin

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin. -Deuteronomy 24:16

The idea that Christ died as if He commited our sin violates the Biblical teaching that each man be put to death for his OWN sins.  This verse, however, seems to only apply to adults, since young children in the Bible are put to death, or killed, because of their parents sins, as in the case of David's son, or the nations God commanded the Israelites to destroys.  Regardless, Christ could not have been put to death for the sins of others (at least justly!). Rather, Christ willingly laid down His own life for the sake of others, not that He should die as their substitute, but that by His righteous death, God would show mercy to mankind, thus allowing man forgiveness on the condition they repent of their sins.  After all, Christ did make several warning statements that certain sins would cause the soul to go to Hell forever, as we see in Matthew 5 with sexual sins, Matthew 6 with withholding forgiving your brother's sins and so on.

On another point, Deuteronomy 24:16 is a verse anti/counter-Missionary Jews use against Christians.  Their claim is legitimate, but only against baptistic and Calvinistic types of Christians that espouse this particular view of the atonement that says "Christ died in our place" or "He took the wrath of God in our place" and so on.  Rather, the Biblical Christ was a propitiation for the sins of the world, meaning His death provided MERCY for mankind. 

I have already written before that the idea of a penal substitution when logically followed out is a denial of Trinitarianism, or can be an affirmation of a sort of Arianism (since God cannot be forsaken by God), or some form of theology where Christ as a man and Christ as God are divorced (undoing the incarnation).

Calvinists try to prove a penaly substitution with verses like 2 Corinthians 5:21, or Isaiah 53 and so on.  When the fact is 2 Corinthians 5:21 by saying Christ "became sin for us" is an expression St Paul was using for a sin offering, and Isaiah 53 doesn't mean God treated Christ as if He had our sins, in fact Matthew 8:17 interprets this part of Isaiah as Jesus healing the sick and casting out demons:

When it was evening, they brought him many who were possessed by demons, and he drove out the spirits by a word and cured all the sick, to fulfill what had been said by Isaiah the prophet: “He took away our infirmities and bore our diseases.”--Matthew 8:16-17

One more reason I am not a Calvinist or an OSASer

The Scripture reads

There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.-2 Peter 2:1

Notice it clearly says the Lord "bought" or "ransomed" the false teachers who are going to Hell, thus not everyone Jesus died for will go to Heaven no matter what.

Here is the link to a Calvinist's response

It's really long winded and repetitive, scroll down to the last paragraph to get his answer to the text. Dr McMahon sums it up with the following: 

So to summarize the point here: false teachers are “saying” they are Christians, and “saying” they have been bought, but in fact are not bought at all. “Denying the sovereign Lord who bought them” is what they are saying about their lifestyle, though it is not true from the rest of the immediate context of the passage. The word “bought” means they are either saved (which we know false teachers are not saved so that cannot be the meaning of the passage) or they are “saying” they “they believe themselves to be saved” and ultimately are self-deceived. But it cannot mean that Christ bought them with His blood, and they reject that “offer” to eternal life.

Essentially, what he does is change the text from

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

to

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who THEY FALSELY CLAIMED bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

This seems to be the only theologically feasible answer to this text from his theological bias, in other words he knows it's not possible to lose salvation and he knows that Christ only died for the elect, therefore he knows the text cannot deny those two things since he knows his Reformed interpretation of Scripture is true.

Most Calvinists believe all those bought/ "paid for" by Christ are saved and will go to heaven no matter what.  This is negated by 2 Peter 2:1.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.-(2 Peter 2:1 ESV)

We see the Holy Scriptures telling us some people were bought by Christ, yet still go to Hell (swift destruction).   So, obviously, the penal substitution / Calvinistic / Reformed (and sometimes "evangelical") version of the atonement is FALSE.

This article was adapted from my post to catholic.com forum made a while ago

Was God the Son separated from God the Father are Calvary?

Recently, a few people has told me and others on Paltalk that during the Cross Christ was "separated from the Father."  One person that said this was an antiCatholic who is a Calvinist, another was a young man that left the Church believing himself to be more Catholic than the pope (he stated Christ's separation was purely in His humanity, not Divinity), another was an anti/ex-Catholic who received education at a Protestant 'bible college.'.

People that promote this theory use many scriptures as proof texts.  They include the Scripture at Calvary where Christ says "why have you forsaken me," the passage in 1st Corinthians where St Paul declares Christ became sin for us, and other passages which state Christ "bore" our sins, and the verse in Isaiah 53 where it speaks of the suffering Servant as being "cut off"

As a note the verse about being forsaken is a quotation of Psalm 22 and Christ is expressing the words of sinners, perhaps the best explanation for this is found by St Augustine of Hippo:

"...the first verse of which the Lord Himself uttered on the Cross: "My God, My God, look upon Me; why have You forsaken Me?" For "transferring us in a figure" [1 Corinthians 4:6] to what He was saying, and to His own Body (for we are also "His Body," and He is our "Head"), He uttered from the Cross not His own cry, but ours. For God never "forsook" Him: nor did He Himself ever depart from the Father; but it was in behalf of us that He spoke this: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" For there follows, "Far from My health are the words of My offences:" and it shows in whose person He said this; for sin could not be found in Him.…"--Exposition on Psalm 44

I will deal with the other Scripture verses at a later time.

The main reason the view Christ was separated from the Father is not a viable view if for it's incompatiblity with Trinity theology and the hypostatic union.

For Christ to be separated from the Father would require either Arianism (even temporary) or some form of temporary polytheism.  For Christ being God to be separated from God the Father would mean there was some form of fracture in the Trinity.  The Trinity is a profession that God is one substance in the Persons that are united.  Many Protestants like to assert that Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear of Israel....the Lord is One) word echad (one) refers to a compound unity.  Now if God is a compound unity, then how can God the Son be separated from God the Father and still be One God, that is a compound unity?  The answer is plain, it cannot be the case. God cannot be separated from Himself, it would be illogical in anyway.  One of the individuals told me it only seems illogical, like when God became a man.  However, God becoming a man is not illogical because God the Son did not lose His form as God by assuming a human nature, John 3:13 tells us He was in Heaven while being on Earth.  While the theory Christ was separted from the Father is absolutely illogical since it violates the profession of God being One, a 'compound unity.' 

Now for the belief that Jesus Christ was only separated from the Father in His human nature alone.  This view is less illogical and less blasphemous at the first, but it is still a great error to claim since it would split the Person of Christ into two and undue the incarnation.  If He is fully God and man united in one person, Jesus Christ, that is the hypostatic union, then the Atonement would require Him to be separated from Himself, requiring Him possibly to be present solely in His Human nature at the Cross. This person that pushed this theory (the sedevacantist) eventually seemed to admit he did not know much theology (which begs then "how are you a sedevacantist if you don't know much theology" since sedevacantists insist the Church has fallen into heresy, but perhaps he IS a sedevacantist BECAUSE he does not know much theology, but this is the subject of another article.)

In experience I have only met one person (a Protestant) that acknowledged the difficulty in believing Jesus was separated from God the Father at the Cross who accepted it. He said told me in rougly these words "Yes the Trinity was broken up at the Cross!"

To be Continued....