- 3 fairly old sounding hymns are sung, including the one about the "saints." In the hymnal I noticed some of the hymns in the Mormon hymnal include hymns by hymn makers Joseph Smith said were wrong and apostate (like Charles Wesley, a founder of Methodism, younger brother of John Wesley, on hymn 66 of the modern LDS hymnal, a few other hymns are included)
- More testimonies are often about how wonderful their fellow Mormons in the ward are, they all say they "know" the Mormon church is true, the prophet is true, the Mormon gospel is true etc, and will give little reasoning.
- One testimony by a ex fundamentalist woman admitted all the preconceived notions about Mormonism melted away and all their doctrines she was told when she found out they were nice people. She said she learned about Mormonism is that it should be about what they do and not what they say! Implying their beliefs do not really seem important as long as they are nice. She said her old friends stopped talking to her because of her conversion--ironically Mormons are known for doing the same to their apostates.
- Mormon testimonies are very emotional, in fact Kleenex boxes are automatically next to the podium.
- Jesus and God are not mentioned much in the testimony, except in passing, and all testimonies finish with "in Jesus Name. Amen."
- The Mormons in their testimony do allude to their preexistence in their testimony (the idea they had their soul before conception.)
- Mormon "communion" can be lead by teenage boys praying at a table in front of the congregation. They preach and pass around leaven bread cubes in special trays with handles on it. Then line up and return the trays to the front. Then for the cup--they do not use wine since Mormons do not drink alcohol, nor do they use grape juice like Baptists, but rather Mormons use water placed in tiny shot glasses and pass it around like the bread.
- All the males wear a white dress shirt and tie, and maybe a coat.
- Women seem to be allowed to wear any color they would like.
- I noticed while people were giving their testimonies there was snoring.
- Testimonies are encouraged to be short and the Mormon bishop, or whoever is leading it is supposed to go first.
- The Mormon congregation was small, but the leader explicitly said most of them were converts.
- Mormon church interiors are fairly plain, though similar to a standard Protestant church, except with a large area for the choir in the front of the church behind where the ministers preaches.
Showing posts with label lds. Show all posts
Showing posts with label lds. Show all posts
Sunday, August 3, 2014
Attending a Mormon Sacrament and Fast and Testimony
I went to a LDS sacrament meeting. Some notes:
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Sunday, July 6, 2014
LDS Prophet vs New Testament Prophet
In Mormon (LDS) theology the top authority of their ecclesiastical structure has a Prophet, they claim
Otherwise, the only other time we see a male prophet (if not multiple simultaneous ones) in the New Testament was a man that was a prophet to HELP the Apostles--he was not the church leader (as LDS.org claims that was Peter and Paul) he was just given prophecies by God about events about to happen.
Let's see what LDS.org has written about Agabus:
A story by a door-to-door missionary:
LDS.org also says in its manual on "The Life and the Teachings of Jesus and his Apostles",
The Mormon manual called "New Testament Student Manual" 2014 says,
St Paul mentions the Apostles as being FIRST--before Prophets!
As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophets—inspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures
We sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church.--LDS.orgThe strange part of this claim is that Peter and Paul lived at the same time and furthermore they did not have an interest in calling themselves prophets, nor did other people in the New Testament seem to apply this title to them, yet St John does seem to be called a Prophet, but this seems to only be in relation to the book of Revelation, never did St John guide the whole church and have it all subject to him. We also see there are FEMALE prophets like St Phillip's "four virgin daughters gifted with prophecy" in Acts 21:9. Judas and Silas are called "prophets":
Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted and strengthened the brothers with many words.--Acts 15:32Yet, Judas and Silas were subject to others and are not mentioned as speaking in the Council, despite being called in Acts 15:22 "leaders among the brothers," in fact Silas was a sidekick to Paul in Acts 15:40 and followed him much of Acts.
Otherwise, the only other time we see a male prophet (if not multiple simultaneous ones) in the New Testament was a man that was a prophet to HELP the Apostles--he was not the church leader (as LDS.org claims that was Peter and Paul) he was just given prophecies by God about events about to happen.
At that time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch, and one of them named Agabus stood up and predicted by the Spirit that there would be a severe famine all over the world, and it happened under Claudius.--Acts 11:27-28
We had been there several days when a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. He came up to us, took Paul’s belt, bound his own feet and hands with it, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit: This is the way the Jews will bind the owner of this belt in Jerusalem, and they will hand him over to the Gentiles.”--Acts 21:10-11We see a New Testament Prophet, just as St John, roles were not to be leaders of the Church-that was the role of the Apostles and presbyters. We see Acts 15 the Church Council was a gathering of Apostles and Presbyters--no prophet mentioned!
The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.--Acts 15:6Agabus was still alive and already a prophet in Acts 11:27 and mentioned again in Acts 21:10--and we know he was both in Jerusalem and Antioch (Acts 11:27-28)--yet why is it the New Testament seems fit to cite what he says on the matter, why are his words not mentioned at the Jerusalem council of Acts 15?, why did not people in Antioch end all debate when Agabus come to them on the matter? Because he was not an apostle! An LDS missionary/elder insisted to me that Agabus must have had a leading role in the Church that is never mentioned, interestingly enough he admitted accepting Mormonism on other points was very difficult for him too!
Let's see what LDS.org has written about Agabus:
A story by a door-to-door missionary:
When I replied that everyone should be interested in a living prophet on the earth, she cried, “That’s not so! There are no prophets on the earth! Jesus Christ was the last prophet.”Then something strange happened. A question came to my mind: “What about Agabus?”
I immediately called out, “What about Agabus?” There was a long pause. Then the woman responded, “Who’s Agabus?”
“A prophet who lived after Christ and who prophesied of a famine that came to pass,” I said.
She asked me, “Where did you read that—in your Mormon Bible?”
“No,” I replied, “in the book of Acts, chapter 11, verse 28.”--What about Agabus?Yes, what ABOUT Agabus--he does something Mormon prophets can't--predict things and have them actually 'come to pass!'
LDS.org also says in its manual on "The Life and the Teachings of Jesus and his Apostles",
(30-7) Acts 11:28. Who Was Agabus?In this one they do not say he was a "prophet" but just had the "gift of prophecy." We look in the dictionary:
Little is known of Agabus other than that he possessed the gift of prophecy and was a noble Christian. By means of divine inspiration, he foretold a famine during the reign of the emperor Claudius, a fact which both the New Testament and Josephus confirm (Acts 11:28; Josephus, The Life and Works of Flavius Joseph, Antiquities of the Jews 20. 2. 5). Following Paul’s return from his third mission, Agabus also predicted Paul’s future imprisonment and bonds (Acts 21:10, 11).--Chapter 30: “God Is No Respecter of Persons”
The Mormon manual called "New Testament Student Manual" 2014 says,
While Paul and his fellow laborers were staying at the home of Philip, “a certain prophet, named Agabus” visited them and prophesied that Paul would be bound if he continued on to Jerusalem (Acts 21:10). It is obvious that Agabus had the Spirit of the Lord with him, for Paul was later bound in Jerusalem (see Acts 21:33).-- "New Testament Student Manual" 2014. Chapter 34: Acts 21–28This article written in 1962 refers to Agabus among other New Testament prophets who existed simultaneously but does not see an issue with the fact they were more about predictions than doctrine or new revelation, or they were mentioned after apostles, among other things. If the LDS is a reestablishment of the New Testament church then why didn't the New Testament church have a governing prophet like the Mormon do? Why were there multiple ones at once, but now only one at a time?
St Paul mentions the Apostles as being FIRST--before Prophets!
Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.--1 Corinthians 12:27-28Even, in other places we see the prophets were mentioned second to the apostles:
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.--Ephesians 2:20
which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit--Ephesians 3:5
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers--Ephesians 4:11
Rejoice over her, heaven, you holy ones, apostles, and prophets. For God has judged your case against her.--Revelation 18:20Finally, the book of Revelation, we are told the city is built on the 12 APOSTLES:
The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.--Revelation 21:14If the Mormon religion is supposed to be a restoration of the New Testament church that Christ made, why is the concept of a governing prophet that leads the church and is assisted by 12 apostles the opposite of the New Testament church that is lead by 12 apostles and are assisted by multiple (simultaneous) prophets (some of which were female)? Sometimes, a Mormon may point to the fact Joseph Smith called all his "apostles" prophets too, but the fact still remains there was no mention of a top prophet in the new Testament that guided the Church. And if according to the Mormon claim the LDS.org site makes that Paul was a prophet like Moses, Isaiah and their current "prophet" Monson--then why did St Paul have to be told by another prophet--Agabus that he was to be bound up.
...a prophet named Agabus.....came up to us, took Paul’s belt, bound his own feet and hands with it, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit: This is the way the Jews will bind the owner of this belt in Jerusalem, and they will hand him over to the Gentiles."--Acts 21:10-11The answer seems simple--though St Paul received a vision of Christ--he did not claim to be a prophet, nor do others seem to claim that for him either! St Paul was assisted by prophets!
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