Showing posts with label pope. Show all posts
Showing posts with label pope. Show all posts

Tuesday, June 16, 2020

Pope Gregory the Great, Emperor Trajan and praying for the damned

This article discusses the legend that Pope Gregory prayed for the salvation of the damned soul of the long dead Emperor Trajan--resulting in the Emperor's salvation. The legend, which seems almost certainly apocryphal, has had a big impact in the Orthodox Church's doctrines and practices concerning the dead and Hell. This implication seem to justify practices like rejecting private revelation as basis for doctrine, and making such things only private devotions, and would seem to be another reason the Second Vatican Council's efforts to remove legends (especially ones for the basis for certain saints) from the Roman Calendar was justified (though Gregory the Great is recognized as a saint without respect to this story).

In the Middle Ages a story floated around that Pope Gregory the Great (died March 12, AD 604) when thinking about the pagan Emperor Trajan was so moved by his justice and morality that cried for the Emperor and he was released from Hell or got a mitigated damnation, some say the Emperor resurrected, accepted the faith, then died again and went to heaven. The earliest, most well-known accounts (Whitby, Pseudo-Paul the Deacon, Pseudo-Damascene) has God telling the Pope to not make this request for a pagan/impious ever again.

However, Eastern Orthodox apologists and some theologians appeal to this story (in addition to the Nestorian bishop "St" Isaac the Syrian's comments on Hell, despite his comments being based on the writings of the anathematized Theodore of Mopsuestia) as evidence the doctrine of universal reconciliation was not totally condemned at the time of Justinian in the synod of Constantinople 543, or that at least some of those that are damned, having died in mortal sin, can be saved after death by prayers, though the story says not to do this.

The earliest written account attributed to an anonymous monk from the Whitby Abbey in England several generations later reads:
"Some of our people also tell a story related by the Romans of how the soul of the Emperor Trajan was refreshed and even baptized by St. Gregory's tears, a story marvelous to tell and marvelous to hear. Let no one be surprised that we say he was baptized, for without baptism none will ever see God; and a third kind of baptism is by tears. One day as he was crossing the Forum, a magnificent piece of work for which Trajan is said to have been responsible, he found on examining it carefully that Trajan, though a pagan, had done a deed so charitable that it seemed more likely to have been the deed of a Christian than a pagan. For it is related that, as he was leading his army in great haste against the enemy, he was moved to pity by the words of a widow, and the emperor of the whole world came to a halt. She said, 'Lord Trajan, here are the men who killed my son and are unwilling to pay me recompense.' He answered, 'Tell me about it when I return. and I will make them recompense you.' But she replied, 'Lord, if you never return, there will be no-one to help me.' Then, armed as he was, he made the defendants pay forthwith the compensation they owed her, in his presence. When Gregory discovered this story, he recognized that this was just what we read about in the Bible, 'judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord.' Since Gregory did not know what to do to comfort the soul of this man who brought the words of Christ to his mind, he went to St Peter's Church and wept floods of tears, as was his custom, until he gained at last by divine revelation the assurance this his prayers were answered, seeing that he had never presumed to ask this for any other pagan.--The Earliest Life of Gregory the Great, Chapter 29. page 127. Written by an Anonymous Whitby monk c. AD 680-704. Translated by Bertram Colgrave. 1985.
This, the oldest version of the account extant, is largely unknown to modern audiences Orthodox or Catholic. Notice this account points to the virtues of Emperor Trajan and seems ignorant of his atrocities in killing Christians. A commentary suggests the story of the widow demanding recompense is out of place:
""Her son, she says, has been murdered; she has the perpetrators in hand; but they refuse to pay the recompense: we are in the realm of the Germanic wergeld."--The Unbounded Community: Papers in Christian Ecumenism in Honor of Jaroslav Pelikan The Virtuous Pagan, Page 47 
 A version of the story was retold by John the Deacon in a biography about Pope Gregory the Great commissioned by Pope John VIII in the ninth century is as follows (unfortunately I cannot find a translation):

AI translation:

It is also read in the same English Churches that Gregory, passing through the Forum of Trajan, which Trajan himself had once adorned with the most beautiful buildings, recalled and marveled at the judgment by which Trajan had comforted a widow. This is, as it is handed down by earlier accounts, indeed the case. At a certain time, as Trajan was hastening most urgently to prepare for an impending war, a widow came forward, weeping bitterly, and said: "My innocent son was killed during your reign; I beg you, since you cannot restore him to me, to deign to legally avenge his blood." And when Trajan responded that, if he returned safely from the battle, he would fully avenge him, the widow said: "If you die in battle, who will guarantee this for me?" Trajan said: "He who will rule after me." The widow replied: "And what will it profit you if another does justice for me?" Trajan answered: "Indeed, nothing." And the widow said: "Is it not better for you to do justice for me and receive your reward for it, rather than passing this on to another?" Then Trajan, moved equally by reason and compassion, dismounted from his horse and did not depart until he had personally resolved the widow’s imminent case. 
It is said that Gregory, recalling the gentleness of this judge, reached the Basilica of Saint Peter the Apostle. There, he wept so long over the error of such a merciful prince until, on the following night, he received a response that his prayers for Trajan had been heard, but that he should no longer pour out prayers for any other pagan. However, while no one doubts the earlier miracles of the Romans, regarding this story read among the Saxons—that Trajan’s soul was freed from the torments of hell by Gregory’s prayers—there seems to be particular doubt, especially because such a great teacher would never presume to pray for a pagan. In the fourth book of his Dialogues, he taught that the same reason why the saints do not pray for sinners condemned to eternal fire at the future judgment applies now as well: it is why holy men do not pray for deceased infidels and the impious. Yet they fail to notice that it is not recorded that Gregory prayed for Trajan, but only that he wept. For indeed, though Gregory did not pray, he could have been heard through his weeping, just as Moses, though silent in his sorrow, seemed to cry out, to whom the Lord said with silent lips: "Why do you cry out to me?" (Exodus 14:15). Surely, almighty God searches hearts and minds, and often mercifully grants what a person, though desiring it as a mortal, does not presume to ask. Hence the Psalmist says: "The Lord has heard the desire of the poor, and your ear has heard the longing of their hearts" (Psalm 19:17). 
And it should be noted that it is not recorded that Trajan’s soul was freed from hell and placed in paradise by Gregory’s prayers—something that seems entirely unbelievable because of what is written: "Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven" (John 3:3). Rather, it is simply said that his soul was freed only from the torments of hell. This can indeed seem credible, since a soul can exist in hell and, by God’s mercy, not feel its torments, just as the one fire of Gehenna can hold all sinners equally, yet, by God’s justice, it does not burn them all equally. For each person will feel punishment according to the measure of guilt they deserve, by the just judgment of God.----John the Deacon , S. Gregorii Papae Vita (Life of Pope St Gregory) II.44 Patrologia Latina (Migne): Volume 75, 105-106 (written between AD 872-882)

My personal attempt: 

It's read also in the hands of the same English Churches, that Gregory going forth through Trajan's forum, at one time he made beautiful with the most beautiful buildings, his judgement where a widow had been comforted is to be remembered and wondered: what is certainly just as previously received, so he himself hadAt a certain time, Trajan was in a great haste to prepare for an impending war, a certain widow approached [him] mournfully saying: My innocent son, you reign, he is destroyed; I beseech that, because he is to pay me you are not able, his blood legally fit to be avenged.   And Trajan, if he returns safe from battle, will himself use his legal authority for everything in the response. The widow said: If you die in battle, who will give it to me?  Trajan said: He who will rule after me.  The widow said: And what does it profit you if another renders me justice?  Trajan answered: Certainly, nothing.  And the widow: Is it not better for you that you render me justice, and in exchange for that you receive a fee, rather than assign it to another? Then Trajan, moved at the same time by reason and by pity, got down from the horse and did not depart before himself having concluded the trial on the side of the widow. Therefore this kind judgement, they assert Gregory remembered arriving to St Peter the Apostle's basilica; and there so long concerning a wondering as most merciful leader lamenting, till when he encountered a response the following night, for Trajan was heard, tantum for no other pagan offer prayer.  But with concern to the supreme miracle of the Romans which nobody doubts, concerning this it is read among the Saxons, this petition freed Trajan's soul from the torment of hell, for which also is to be seen with very much doubt, which such a size of a doctor in no wise certainly presumes to pray for a pagan; which his fourth book of Dialogues teaches the same is the reason why saints should not pray in future judgement for sinners are condemned to eternal fireNor do saintly men on earth pray for deceased infidels and godless people. not considering that it is not read Gregory prayed for Trajan, but only he wept.  For thus with no praying Gregory, wailing could be heard, as Moses with suffering quietly, he could be seen crying, the Lord said to his silent lips: "Why do you cry to me?" (Exodus 14:15).  Without a doubt Almighty God searches unraveling hearts, and often He gives pity, which men although as the flesh desires, but yet do not presume to askHence the Psalmist: "The Lord has heard the desire of the poor, and the desires of their heart you have heard" (Psalm 9:38).   And it should be noted that it is not read Gregory offered prayers for Trajan's soul to be freed from hell, and placed in paradise, which is completely not credible discern according to that which is written, "unless m a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:5);" but simply said, freed only from the torment of hell (inferno). Which is to say, it could be seen credibly, seeing as in this manner the soul in Hell were availed, and through the mercy of God, Hell's torment is not felt, as a single Gehenna's fire prevails equally detaining all sinners, thus through God's justice all are not able in a like manner burned. But as far as each one deserves blame, God's just judgement only he will feel and punishment.--John the Deacon , S. Gregorii Papae Vita (Life of Pope St Gregory) II.44 Patrologia Latina (Migne): Volume 75, 105-106 (written between AD 872-882) (in process of translating--I am not fluent by any stretch)
Legitur etiam penes easdem Anglorum Ecclesias, quod Gregorius per forum Traiani, quod ipse quondam pulcherrimis aedificiis venustarat, procedens, iudicii eius quo viduam consolatus fuerat recordatus atque miratus sit: quod scilicet sicut a prioribus traditur, ita se habet.  Quodam tempore, Traiano ad imminentis belli procinctum festinanti vehementissime, vidua quaedam processit flebiliter dicens: Filius meus innocens, te regnante, peremptus est; obsecro ut, quia eum mihi reddere non vales, sanguinem eius legaliter vindicare digneris.   Cumque Traianus, si sanus reverteretur a praelio, hunc se vindicaturum per omnia responderet, vidua dixit: Si tu in praelio mortuus fueris, quis mihi praestabit?  Traianus dixit: Ille qui post me imperabit.  Vidua dixit: Et tibi quid proderit, si alter mihi iustitiam fecerit?  Traianus respondit: Utique nihil.  Et vidua: Nonne, inquit, melius tibi est ut tu mihi iustitiam facias, et tu pro hoc mercedem tuam recipias, quam alteri hanc transmittas? Tunc Traianus ratione pariter pietateque commotus, equo descendit, nec ante discessit quam iudicium viduae per semet imminens profligaret. Huius ergo mansuetudinem iudicis asserunt Gregorium recordatum ad sancti Petri apostoli basilicam pervenisse; ibique tandiu super errore tam clementissimi principis deflevisse, quousque responsum sequenti nocte cepisset, se pro Traiano fuisse auditum, tantum pro nullo ulterius pagano preces effunderet.  Sed cum de superioribus miraculis Romanorum sit nemo qui dubitet, de hoc quod apud Saxones legitur, huius precibus Traiani animam ab inferni cruciatibus liberatam, ob id vel maxime dubitari videtur, quod tantus doctor nequaquam praesumeret pro pagano prorsus orare; qui quarto Dialogorum suorum libro docuerit eamdem causam esse cur non oretur a sanctis in futuro iudicio pro peccatoribus aeterno igne damnatis; quae nunc etiam causa est ut non orent sancti homines pro hominibus infidelibus impiisque defunctis; non advertentes quia non legitur pro Traiano Gregorium exorasse, sed tantum flevisse.  Sic enim cum non oraverit Gregorius, plangendo potuit exaudiri, sicuti Moyses cum dolendo taceret, potuit clamasse videri, cui Dominus tacenti labiis: Quid clamas, inquit, ad me (Exod. XIV, 15)?  Nimirum Deus omnipotens corda renesque scrutatur, et frequenter ea misertus concedit, quae homo quamvis ut carnalis desideret, tamen petere non praesumit.  Unde Psalmista: Desiderium pauperum exaudivit Dominus, et desideria cordis eorum audivit auris tua (Psal. XIX, 17).   Et notandum quia non legitur Gregorii precibus Traiani anima ab inferno liberata, et in paradiso reposita, quod omnino incredibile videtur propter illud quod scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu sancto non intrabit in regnum coelorum (Ioan. III, 3); sed simpliciter dicitur, ab inferni solummodo cruciatibus liberata. Quod videlicet potest videri credibile quippe cum ita valeat anima in inferno existere, et inferni cruciatus per Dei misericordiam non sentire, sicuti unus gehennae ignis valet omnes peccatores pariter detinere, sic per Dei iustitiam cunctos non valet aequaliter exurere. Nam uniuscuiusque quantum meruit culpa, iusto Dei iudicio tantum sentietur et poena.--John the Deacon , S. Gregorii Papae Vita (Life of Pope St Gregory) II.44 Patrologia Latina (Migne): Volume 75, 105-106 (written between AD 872-882)
What is clear from John the Deacon is that he cites the fourth book of the Dialogues by Pope Gregory where he says the damned in Gehenna are not to be prayed for--he quotes it as I do later in this article. John the Deacon certainly doesn't believe the Pope prayed for the Emperor.

The story as attributed to Paul the Deacon has been determined to have not but written by him but about 50 years later it was inserted into his text on Gregory the Great, this portion of text is sometimes called "pseudo-Paul":.
"The first edition of this work (Paul the Deacon's vita of Gregory) was published in 1887 and it says nothing about Trajan. The vita of Gregory ascribed to Paul in both the Acta Sanctorum and Migne's Patrologia latina is a pseudonymous and interpolated version written a century later which draws on the intervening vita of Gregory by John the Deacon..."--The Unbounded Community: Papers in Christian Ecumenism in Honor of Jaroslav Pelikan The Virtuous Pagan, Page 47
The interpolated text is translated as follows:
"Also, this same priest, who was very fervent and acceptable to God, on a certain day proceeded through the forum of Trajan, which he knew had been built in an extraordinary manner. And he viewed the monuments of Trajan's clemency, especially that memorable one which commemorates the fact that when this earthly prince surrounded by a group of soldiers once was going on an expedition he had met a very old widow. She was worn out with old age as well as with sorrow and poverty, and he was stopped by her tears and wails. "O most loyal Prince Trajan, behold here are men who have killed my only son, my support and my only comfort. And, wishing to kill me along with him, they refused to pay me any restitution for him." Being in a hurry, he said to her as he passed on, "When I return, tell me this, and I shall render you full justice." Then she said, "Master, and if you do not return, what shall I do?" He listened to this plea and ordered the accused to be brought before him.  Nor, when it was suggested by everyone that he hastened the business, did he move a step from the place until he had arranged that the widow be paid from his purse whatever was decreed by law. And, at length, by prayers and tears of supplication, sorrowing over his misdeeds and moved by inward mercy, he freed the accused from their praetorial bonds not much by his power as by his devotion and leniency. Then the venerable pontiff, moved by grace, began with tearful sighs and supplicant words to quote these prophecies and evangelical maxims; "Thou, O Lord. hast said: 'Judge for the fatherless, defend the widow; and come, and accuse me.' And elsewhere, 'Forgive, and it shall be forgiven you;' be no unmindful, I beseech Thee, that I a most unworthy sinner, on account of the glory of Thy name and on Thy most faithful promise in the case of this devoted man do humbly implore Thy clemency."  And arriving at the tomb of Saint Peter, he prayed there for a long time and wept and was, as it were, overcome by sleep and rapt in ecstacy in which he learned through a revelation that he had been graciously heard. And lest in the future he should presume to seek favors for anyone who had died without holy baptism he was deservedly reproved. In this connection he was allowed to be asked certain things by inquisitive people of imperfect faith and more things by those who believe the truth when it is spoken faithfully. And he was allowed to explain that the things which are or seem impossible to men are easy to God. In this act of divine goodness and power, nevertheless, it seemed desirable that his opinion be honored and disputed by no one."--Pseudo-Paul the Deacon (c 810-840) interpolated in "The Life of Saint Gregory the Great" by Paul the Deacon,c. AD 770-780 translation by SISTER MARY EMMANUEL JONES, R.S.M,
Idem vero perfectissimus et acceptabilis Deo sacerdos, cum quadam die per forum Trajani, quod opere mirifico constat esse exstructum, procederet, et insignia misericordiae ejus conspiceret, inter quae memorabile illud comperiret, videlicet quod cum idem orbis princeps in expeditionem, circumvallatus militum cuneis, pergeret, ibidem obviam habuerit vetustissimam viduam, senio simulque dolore ac paupertate confectam, cujus lacrymis atque vocibus sic compellatur: Princeps piissime Trajane, ecce hic sunt homines qui modo mihi unicum filium, senectutis scilicet meae baculum et omne solatium, occiderunt; meque una cum eo volentes occidere, dedignantur etiam mihi pro eo rationem aliquam reddere. Cui ille festinato, ut res exigebat, pertransiens: Cum rediero, inquit, dicito mihi, et faciam tibi omnem justitiam. Tum illa: Domine, inquit, et si tu non redieris, ego quid faciam? Ad quam vocem substitit, et reos coram se adduci fecit. Neque, cum suggereretur a cunctis accelerare negotium, gressum a loco movit, quousque et viduae a fisco, quod juridicis sanctionibus decretum est, persolvi pro re fecit; demumque supplicationum precibus et fletibus super factis suis poenitentes viscerali clementia flexus, non tam potestate quam precatu et lenitate vinctos, praetorialibus catenis absolvit. Hujus rei gratia compunctus venerabilis pontifex, coepit lacrymosis gemitibus secum inter verba precantia, haec siquidem prophetica et Evangelica revolvere oracula: Tu, Domine, dixisti: Judicate pupillo, defendite viduam; et venite, et arguite me (Isa. I, 17). Et alibi: Dimittite, et dimittetur vobis; ne immemor sis, quaeso, peccator ego indignissimus, propter nomen gloriae tuae, et fidelissimae promissionis tuae, in hujus devotissimi viri facto, pietati tuae humiliter supplico (Marc. VI, 27). Perveniensque ad sepulcrum beati Petri, ibi diutius oravit, et flevit, atque veluti somno correptus in exstasim est raptus, quo se per revelationem exauditum discit; et ne ulterius jam talia de quoquam sine baptismate sacro defuncto praesumeret petere, promeruit castigari. Qua in re, licet a minus perfectae fidei et curiosis quaedam valeant quaeri, et plura ab his qui credunt veritati fideliter dicenti, quae apud homines impossibilia sunt vel videntur, facilia sunt apud Dominum, salubriter explanari, tutius tamen videtur in hoc actu divinae pietatis et potestatis judicium venerari, et a nemine discuti--Pseudo Paul the Deacon, Vita S. Gregorii Magni, Section 27
The most known version of the story is found in pseudo-Damascene, a work previously attributed to St John of Damascus, it goes as follows:
"...Gregory the Dialogist, the senior bishop of Rome, as everybody knows, was a man well known for his righteousness and knowledge. They even say that the divine angel assisted him when he was conducting the liturgy. One day this Gregory, while taking a walk among the stones, stood carefully still and uttered a mighty prayer directed toward the soul-loving Lord for the forgiveness of the sins of Trajan the king. Immediately after saying these things he heard a voice borne to him from God: "I have heard your prayer, and I grant forgiveness to Trajan. But you (singular) should not again put forward prayers addressed to me on behalf of pagans (ασεβων)." And that this story is true and blameless, the whole East and West is witness. Look, this even surpasses what happened to Falconilla. For she was a party to no other evil (beyond idolatry), but Trajan brought about the deaths of many martyrs. You are marvelous, Lord, and marvelous are your works. We praise your incredible goodness of heart, because you always incline toward the love of human beings."--Pseudo-Damascene, "Homily for Meat-Fare Saturday" PGM 95. 261-64 Translated by Jeffrey A. Trumbower in Rescue for the Dead: The Posthumous Salvation of Non-Christians in Early Christianity. Page 145.
Eventually, this story has largely been forgotten in the West. It is mentioned by Dante and St Thomas Aquinas and several other writings up until around the Renaissance, but largely doubted or rejected as absurd by then. The story was discounted by John the Deacon.

It must be noted the story is of similar nature and absurdity to the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus (which was a popular Christian legend that the Quran took up as true), and the legend of St Brenan the Navigator where he tells of Judas being placed on a rock in the Atlantic Ocean as a temporary reprieve from Hell on holy days (only to be thrown back in the rest of the year!).

First and most importantly, it must be noted that Pope Gregory the Great (St Gregory the Dialogist as he is called in the East) explicitly rejected praying for the damned.
The saints in heaven, therefore, do not offer prayers for the damned in hell for the same reason that we do not pray for the Devil and his angels. Nor do saintly men on earth pray for deceased infidels and godless people. And why? Because they do not wish to waste their prayers in the sight of a just God by offering them for souls who are known to be condemned. But if the saints, while still alive and conscious of their own failings, have no compassion on the unjust sinners in hell, if they show no compassion whatever at a time when they realize that their own sins and imperfections are worthy of God's punishment, how much more severely will they look upon the torments of the damned once they are freed from sin and corruption and stand near to their eternal Judge, closely united with Him? In their intimate association with the most just of all judges, the force of His severity will penetrate their minds, and they will be utterly displeased with anything that is out of harmony with the least detail of the eternal law. --Pope Gregory the Great, Dialogue IV, 44 (taken from The Fathers of the Church, Volume 39, translated by Odo John Zimmerman, O.S,B. book four, page 257)
Commenting on this same passage one translator notes:
CHAPTER XLIV. p. 240. This doctrine of St. Gregory's, that the faithful do not pray for the souls of those whom they suppose to be in Hell, is more explicitly stated in the Moralia (lib. xxxiv, cap.19):"The Saints do not pray for the unbelieving and impious that are dead, because they shrink from the merit of their prayer, concerning those whom they already know to be condemned to eternal punishment, being made void before that countenances of the just Judge."  This is curiously inconsistent with the popular legend, first heard in the eight century, that St Gregory, moved by the tale of the Justice and humility of Trajan towards the poor widow whose son had been slain, prayed and obtained that the soul of the Emperor might return from Hell to his body to win his salvation. This inconsistency is noticed by St Thomas Aquinas, who discusses the story at some length (Summa Theologica, III Suppl Q 71, A. 5)----The Dialogues of Saint Gregory the Great Re-edited with an Introduction and Notes by Edmund G Gardner, 2010.notes, page 275
The above mentioned Moralia, Pope Gregory at length argues that Hell is unending,then concerning praying for the damned he states:
"But they say, And where then is their saintship, if they will not pray for their enemies, whom they will then see burning, though it is expressly said to them, Pray for your enemies? (Matthew 5:44) But we reply at once, They pray for their enemies at that time when they are able to convert their hearts to fruitful penitence, and save them by this very conversion. For what else must we pray for our enemies, except that which the Apostle says, That God may give them repentance, and that they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil, by whom they are held captive unto his will? (2 Timothy 2:25-26) And how will prayers be made at that time for them, when they can no longer be in any degree turned from iniquity to works of righteousness? There is, therefore, the same reason for not praying then for men condemned to eternal fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who have been consigned to eternal punishment. And this is now the reason for holy men not praying for unbelieving and ungodly men who are dead; for they are unwilling that the merit of their prayer should be set aside, in that presence of the righteous Judge, when in behalf of those whom they know to be already consigned to eternal punishment. But if even now the just when alive do not sympathize with the unjust who are dead and condemned, (when they know that they themselves are still enduring from their flesh that which will be called into judgement,) how much more severely do they then regard the torments of the wicked, when, stripped of every sin of corruption, they will themselves cleave more closely and firmly to righteousness? For the power of severity so absorbs their minds, by means of their cleaving to the most righteous Judge, that they take no pleasure whatever in any thing which is at variance with the strictness of that inward rule.  But because we have made these brief remarks against the followers of Origen, as the opportunity occurred, let us go to the course of exposition...."--St Gregory the Dialogist (Pope Gregory the Great), Moralia, Book XXXIV, XIX, 38 (page 647)
I should also note that Pope Gregory the Great's doctrine on purgatory was that it was solely for venial (minor) sins:
"Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgement, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven 'either in this world or in the world to come'(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions."--Gregory the Great[regn. A.D. 590-604], Dialogues, 4:39 (A.D. 594),in FC,39:248
Concerning the eternal nature of damnation, he denounces those that say damnation and punishment ends as making Christ a liar by issuing false threats, which makes it reasonable His promise of rewards are also lies:
"For there are those even now, who neglect to put an end to their sins, for the very reason that they suspect that the future judgements upon them will, some time or another, have an end. To whom we briefly reply, If the punishments of the reprobate will at any time be ended, the joys of the blessed will also be ended at last. For the Truth says by His own mouth, These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:45) If, therefore, this is not true which He has threatened, neither is that true which is promised. But they say, He threatened eternal punishment to sinners, in order to restrain them from the perpetration of sins; because He ought to threaten, not inflict, eternal punishments on His creature. To whom we reply at once: If He has made false threats in order to withdraw from unrighteousness, He has also made false promises, in order to encourage to righteousness. And who can tolerate this madness of theirs, who, while they assert in their hair offers that they punishments of the reprobate are terminated, overthrow by their assertion the rewards, and recompenses, of the Elect also? Who can tolerate their madness, who endeavor to establish that that is not true which the Truth has threatened concerning eternal fire, and who, while busy in declaring God to be merciful, are not ashamed to proclaim Him to be false?
But they said, A fault, which has an end, ought not to be punished without end. Almighty God is doubtless just, and that which is not committed with eternal sin, ought not to be punished with eternal torment. To whom we reply at once, that they would say rightly, if the just and strict Judge at His coming considered not the hearts, but only the doings of men. For the wicked have sinned with a limit, because their life had a limit. For they would have wished to live without end, in order that they might continue in their sins without end. For they are more eager to sin than to live; and they therefore wish to live for ever here, in order that they may never cease to sin, as long as they live. It pertains then to the justice of the strict Judge, that they should never be free from punishment, whose mind desired when in this life never to be free from sin; and that no end of punishment should be granted to the wicked, because as long as he was able he wished to have no end to his sin....."--St Gregory the Dialogist (Pope Gregory the Great), Moralia, Book XXXIV: XIX, 38 (page 644)
Secondly, it must be noted that in none of St Gregory's extant writings does he ever mention this miraculous event. Why would he omit such a great work of God, if this in fact happened? Painstaking work efforts have been taken to preserve this writing!

Thirdly, this story appears to have been invented by an anonymous Whitby (England) monk. The version of the story found on Eastern Orthodox websites citing St John of Damascus is actually a pseudopigraphical writing from the 9th to 10th century called now Pseudo-Damascene. This era has a lot of forgeries, this was the same era that the False Decretals were written including the famous "Donation of Constantine." 

"The Unbounded Community: Papers in Christian Ecumenism in Honor of Jaroslav Pelikan" deals at length with the Gregory-Trajan legend and its dubious sources. 
"In the next chapter of the Gregory-Trajan legend we move to the Greek church, to a work erroneously ascribed to the eighth-century theologian John of Damascus but which must date to the late ninth or early tenth century because of it makes use of the vitae Gregorii of both John the Deacon and Pseudo-Paul. The author clearly prefer Pseudo-Paul's version. The text is a sermon encouraging prayer for the dead. Pseudo-Damascene brings forward Thecla and Trajan to make the same points. In each case, the person prayed into heaven was a pagan. Second, God will hear the prayers of ordinary Christians not just those of great saints. And third, the efficacy of the prayers of Thecla and Gregory for their respective pagans is not to be doubted. Given John the Deacon's challenge to the credibility of the Trajan legend, Pseudo-Damascene takes pains to stress its appearance by everyone in the east and west alike. With respect to Trajan, he emphasizes the emperor's virtue; incorrect belief was the only blot on his record. Still, since such pagans can be prayed out of hell and into heaven, how much the more can Christians who have died in the faith be helped by the prayers of their co-religionists. In addition, in opposition to people who say that few were saved in Christ's harrowing of hell, Pseudo-Damascene thinks that the reverse was the case. Many were saved thereby, he asserts, so as long as they lived upright lives...…"--The Unbounded Community: Papers in Christian Ecumenism in Honor of Jaroslav Pelikan The Virtuous Pagan, Page 49
 and, noting the effects of Pseudo-Damascene in Eastern theology:
"...the confusion between this author and the John of Damascus revered as an authority in the Greek church helps to explain what happened next, the institutionalization of prayers for the dead, including the damned, by the Greek church and its Slavic daughter churches. By the thirteenth century, these churches had set aside the third Saturday before Lent for prayer for the dead of all sorts, in a formal liturgy whose perdurance can be documented until the sixteenth century. Aside from this influence on the liturgy, Pseudo-Damascene also had a marked influence on the eschatology of the eastern churches. From the eleventh century onward, the belief that the prayers of living Christians could save pagans who were damned, or mitigate their sufferings, received support from eastern theologians; and Trajan was even enrolled in their calendar of saints. These developments are related to the fact that the doctrine of purgatory was not taught in the eastern churches. That fact, paradoxical in the light of the Latin ancestry of the Gregory-Trajan legend, in turn became a stumbling block impeding the hoped-for reunion of the Greek and Romans churches at the Council of Ferrara-Florence in 1438-39."--The Unbounded Community: Papers in Christian Ecumenism in Honor of Jaroslav Pelikan The Virtuous Pagan, Page 50
The book also notes the effects in the West, many believed virtuous pagans were saved, a few believed some would eventually be saved, however, unlike the East--the West did not develop prayers for the damned, but rather dogmatized further that those who die in original sin alone or moral sin will be in Hell forever. The only effect in the West is it asked the question of the moral people who live a good life but die without baptism.  Even before this at least in the case of catechumen and martyrs, was that they would be regenerate before they die and be taken in to heaven.

St Thomas Aquinas on the case of Emperor Trajan and Pope Gregory the Great denies it proves prayers for the damned will benefit them:
Reply to Objection 5. Concerning the incident of Trajan it may be supposed with probability that he was recalled to life at the prayers of Blessed Gregory, and thus obtained the grace whereby he received the pardon of his sins and in consequence was freed from punishment. The same applies to all those who were miraculously raised from the dead, many of whom were evidently idolaters and damned. For we must needs say likewise of all such persons that they were consigned to hell, not finally, but as was actually due to their own merits according to justice: and that according to higher causes, in view of which it was foreseen that they would be recalled to life, they were to be disposed of otherwise.
Or we may say with some that Trajan's soul was not simply freed from the debt of eternal punishment, but that his punishment was suspended for a time, that is, until the judgment day. Nor does it follow that this is the general result of suffrages, because things happen differently in accordance with the general law from that which is permitted in particular cases and by privilege. Even so the bounds of human affairs differ from those of the miracles of the Divine power as Augustine says (De Cura pro Mort. xvi). --St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III Suppl Q 71, A. 5
In addition, I should note that praying for the damned was generally in the West condemned, rejected or discouraged in part because the West generally saw mortal sin and original sin as things one cannot repent of after death, therefore Hell is not escapable. One of the great Eastern theologians, St John of Damascus, who is at times cited in the debate over praying for the damned (see Pseudo-Damascene, "Homily for Meat-Fare Saturday" above), stated neither angels nor humans can repent after a certain point:
All wickedness, then, and all impure passions are the work of their mind. But while the liberty to attack man has been granted to them, they have not the strength to over-master any one: for we have it in our power to receive or not to receive the attack. Wherefore there has been prepared for the devil and his demons, and those who follow him, fire unquenchable and everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41). 
Note, further, that what in the case of man is death is a fall in the case of angels. For after the fall there is no possibility of repentance for them, just as after death there is for men no repentance.--St John of Damascus, PG 94,877. An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book II), Chapter II
If St John Damascene believed there will be no repentance after death, how can the wicked be rehabilitated? If Hell makes them just, apart from repentance, won't that just man be repentant for this wickedness that landed him in Hell in the first place?






Being revised and to be continued....

Sunday, September 7, 2014

Ellen G White: on the Pope, Sabbath, her bad history

Remembering the official SDA writings state Ellen G White and her comments on scripture are inspired by God, I thought to look at what she says about the Pope since Seventh-Day Adventists are known for their pope obsessions--blaming him for everything and anything that's wrong in the world, the worst crime of all being "changing the Sabbath day to Sunday!"
I saw that the Sabbath was not nailed to the cross. If it was, the other nine commandments were; and we are at liberty to go forth and break them all, as well as to break the fourth. I saw that God had not changed the Sabbath, for he never changes. But the Pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week; for he was to change times and laws.--The Review and Herald, Experience and Views. July 21, 1851
This is the typical SDA interpretation of Daniel that says pope is the one spoken of:
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.--Daniel 7:25 KJV
She also makes the absurd statement that if God's law changed, then God changes! But the fact is we KNOW God did change the Law since He no longer requires a person to baptize themselves after touching a dead person, or declares a woman unclean after giving birth, or requiring physical circumcision on the 8th day of a male. Also, the problem there is no evidence the Pope ever changed the Sabbath day, all that Adventists can point to is a bunch of writings from magazines in the 19th century some of which are inaccurate, misleading, or fraudulent. Sometimes, they will point to a statement by early Christian writings talking about not keeping the Sabbath day, however, in either case, the SDA are never able to produce any actual evidence the Pope ever instructing the Church to cease observing a seventh day Sabbath and do a Sunday Sabbath. In fact, you will not find any reference in Catholic magisterium where Sunday is called the Sabbath day itself. Several early Catholic writings state they went to Mass on both the Sabbath and Sunday--showing Sunday was not considered by them to be the Sabbath day! The best Adventists can come up with is councils where Judaizers are addressed for keeping customs like the Sabbath, or a quote of 19th century bishop saying the Solemnity of the Sabbath was transferred, though not saying the Sabbath itself was! Its interesting the "prophet" Ellen cannot provide any evidence that it was the Pope that adopted the "Sunday Sabbath" as she would see it. Here is another statement I felt was riddled with errors in the same section:
For a number of years Milan was the capital of the kingdom of Italy, and since the fourth century it has surpassed Rome in extent, and in many respects in importance also. Here was the head of the church founded by St. Ambrose, whose diocese maintained its independence of the popes until the middle of the eleventh century. His diocese included not only the flourishing plains of Lombardy, but also the plains and mountain valleys of Piedmont, and the southern provinces of France. Although it is not to be supposed that the light of this people was entirely undimmed by the surrounding darkness of their age, still their faith was essentially Protestant, and in strong opposition to the Roman creed. --Ellen White, The Review and Herald, June 1, 1886, Visit to the Vaudois Valleys
It seems "God" has mislead the "Prophetess Ellen" once again! First, her description of St Ambrose's diocese of Milan included "also the plains and mountain valleys of Piedmont, and the southern provinces of France" is a massive exaggeration. We know this is inaccurate because St Ambrose wrote a letter to the church in Vercellæ (now spelled Vercelli), which is a city and province of Piedmont about how they need to select a new bishop to replace their now deceased bishop Limenius:

Ambrose, a servant of Christ, called to be a Bishop, to the Church of Vercellæ;, and to those who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Grace be fulfilled unto you in the Holy Spirit from God the Father and His only-begotten Son. I am spent with grief that the Church of God which is among you is still without a bishop--St Ambrose, Letter 63, Letter to the Church of Vercellæ
Now, if Vercelli was part of St Ambrose's diocese why would he address it to "the Church of Vercellae" and then say they were still "without a bishop" if according to Ellen White, he, Ambrose, was their bishop?! St Ambrose did have a relationship to the Vercellae, since it was a suffragan to Milan, but he didn't appoint or elect their bishop, Milan was a metropolitan diocese, or archdiocese, so the smaller dioceses are out rank by the metropolitan and will answer to it. To say that Vercellae is part of the diocese is plainly false, and to say St Ambrose founded it is absurd.


She states St Ambrose founded the Church of Milan, yet St Ambrose was the 11th bishop of Milan, not counting the Arian bishop he displaced named Auxentius (a man whom St Ambrose writes about in nothing but negative language). St Ambrose was elected bishop 374 and served until his death in 397. The Church of Milan is written before St Ambrose became bishop by St Athanasius of Alexandria who visited Milan and died in 373--before St Ambrose was even bishop of Milan!
But while they thought that they were carrying on their designs against many by his means, they knew not that they were making many to be confessors, of whom are those who have lately made so glorious a confession, religious men, and excellent Bishops, Paulinus Bishop of Treveri, the metropolis of the Gauls, Lucifer, Bishop of the metropolis of Sardinia, Eusebius of Vercelli in Italy, and Dionysius of Milan, which is the metropolis of Italy. --St Athanasius, History of the Arians, Part IV,  28. Second Arian Persecution under Constantius
St Athanasius plainly states before St Ambrose was bishop of Milan that Dionysius was! Since St Ambrose would not be elected bishop until after St Athanasius death! Notice also the bishop "Eusebius of Vercelli" who was bishop of this Piedmont town. So, the "Prophet" Ellen White is wrong, St Ambrose did not found the Church of Milan at all! We see Dionysius being mentioned as bishop by St Ambrose himself in his letter to the nearby bishopless church of Vercellæ. 

Another city of Piedmont is Turin which also had its own bishop. The successor of St Jerome, Gennadius, in writing "Supplement to De Viris Illustribus" includes a few recent prominent Italian prelates St Jerome did not include, one of them is the bishop of Turin. The work is from the 5th century.
Maximus, bishop of the church at Turin, a man fairly industrious in the study of the Holy Scripture, and good at teaching the people extemporaneously, composed treatises In praise of the apostles and John the Baptist, and a Homily on all the martyrs. Moreover he wrote many acute comments on passages from the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles. He wrote also two treatises, On the life of Saint Eusebius, bishop of Vercelli, and confessor, and On Saint Cyprian, and published a monograph On the grace of baptism. I have read his On avarice, On hospitality, On the eclipse of the moon, On almsgiving, On the saying in Isaiah, Your winedealers mix wine with water, On Our Lord's Passion, A general treatise On fasting by the servants of God, On the quadragesimal fast in particular, and That there should be no jesting on fast day, On Judas, the betrayer, On Our Lord's cross, On His sepulchre, On His resurrection, On the accusation and trial of Our Lord before Pontius Pilate, On the Kalends of January, a homily On the day of Our Lord's Nativity, also homilies On Epiphany, On the Passover, On Pentecost, many also, On having no fear of carnal Foes, On giving thanks after meat, On the repentance of the Ninivites, and other homilies of his, published on various occasions, whose names I do not remember. He died in the reign of Honorius and Theodosius the younger.-
Supplement to De Viris Illustribus Chapter 41, Gennadius 

White also makes the claim that the diocese of Milan "maintained its independence of the popes."  The only time the Milan church was independent in some sense was when it was ruled by a heretical bishop that were Arian like Auxentius, because of this heresy they rejected the bishop of Rome. Before Ambrose was made bishop, bishops from around the world accepted the Council of Sardica in AD 344 which gave the Bishop of Rome authority to judge bishops, settle disputes, or appoint judges, there is no reason why Milan would be any different.  In St Ambrose's funeral homily of his brother Satyrus, he writes about how important Satyrus thought communion with the Church of Rome was (note Satyrus was involved with the administration of the Diocese of Milan):
 But he was not so eager as to lay aside caution. He called the bishop to him, and esteeming that there can be no true thankfulness except it spring from true faith, he enquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is, with the Roman Church? And possibly at that place the Church of the district was in schism. For at that time Lucifer had withdrawn from our communion, and although he had been an exile for the faith, and had left inheritors of his own faith, yet my brother did not think that there could be true faith in schism. For though schismatics kept the faith towards God, yet they kept it not towards the Church of God, certain of whose limbs they suffered as it were to be divided, and her members to be torn. For since Christ suffered for the Church, and the Church is the body of Christ, it does not seem that faith in Christ is shown by those by whom His Passion is made of none effect, and His body divided.--St Ambrose, On the Death of Satyrus: Book I, 47
In St Ambrose's letter to Emperor Gratian he writes:
"Your grace must be besought not to permit any disturbance of the Roman Church, the head of the whole Roman World and of the most holy faith of the Apostles, for from thence flow out to all the bonds of sacred communion."—St Ambrose, To Emperor Gratian, Epistle 11:4(A.D. 381),in SPP,160
I have to wonder about White obsession with St Ambrose since he wrote that he was a priest and practiced things she would consider "Roman." She goes on to say the people of Piedmont were essentially Protestants, a claim she cannot prove, and a claim that the Waldensians even deny, who themselves claims to have been a 12th century breakaway group from the Catholic Church.

Let's continue on to another instance where the prophetess White writes of the Pope.
The Bible is presented to us as a sufficient guide; but the pope and his workers remove it from the people as if it were a curse, because it exposes their pretensions and rebukes their idolatry.--Ellen White, The Review and Herald, Visit to the Vaudois Valleys, June 1, 1886
 This state is pretty ironic since the Seventh-Day Adventists have since then accepted White's Bible commentary as divinely inspired making them some sort of scripture (though they would object to it being called that):
Seventh-day Adventists believe that God inspired Ellen G. White. Therefore, her expositions on any given Bible passage offer an inspired guide to the meaning of texts without exhausting their meaning or preempting the task of exegesis (for example, see Evangelism, 256; The Great Controversy, 193, 595;Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 665, 682, 707-708; Counsels to Writers and Editors, 33-35). --Methods of Bible Study: Bible Study: Presuppositions, Principles, and Methods, 4.l (Methods of Bible Study) [Official statement]

Somehow, this is not a contradiction to Adventists.  Continuing on, White writes a typical statement of a Protestant from that error--Catholics tried to hide the Bible and were idol worshippers! Ignoring the fact Mass readings included different parts of the Bible, the 10 commandments were always standard teaching. Also, venerating icons and relics is not idolatry since idolatry is making physical objects divine representations of false gods. The practice of making images and statues was not forbidden either since in Exodus 25 we see God commanding Moses to make golden angel statues, then in Joshua 7:6 we see Moses' successor Joshua bowing to the Ark of the Covenant. Later on the Temple of Solomon itself contained lots of images and even larger angel statues.

Going on Ellen White mentions the Pope in passing in respects to her concept of God's law:
God’s will is expressed in his holy law. This is the only correct standard of righteousness, and if a man’s character stands in harmony with the Lord’s standard, his testimony may be received and relied upon; but if he stands in opposition to the requirements of God, he measures himself and others by his own finite, fallible standard, and may claim as much as does the pope of Rome.--Ellen White, The Review and Herald, How do we Stand?, July 24, 1888
He then measures himself by his own finite standard, and may claim for himself as much as does the pope of Rome; but in the light of the detector of sin, his character may be wholly wanting.--Ellen White, The Review and Herald, The Obedient Approved of God, August 28, 1894 
This is a shot White takes against the Pope, and appealing to common Protestant hatred of the Pope she says failing to keep or accept the Law makes you no better than the Pope. She's possibly mocking Vatican I also in referring to "fallible standard."

Going on:
 A former Wesleyan local preacher’s family are all interested, and thoroughly convinced of the truth. Even the children ask why they should “keep the pope’s Sunday when they know it is not the true Sabbath.”--Ellen White, The Review and Herald, The Australian Camp-Meeting, January 7, 1896
Ellen was smart, what better way to persuade your fellow Protestants something is wrong that associating it with their "boogey man" of the day--the Pope! Never mind the fact there's no evidence the Pope himself started Sunday worship.

Going on, she talks about the remission of sins and the pope:
Remission of sins can be obtained only through the merits of Christ. On no man, priest or pope, but on God alone, rests the power to forgive sins.--Ellen White, The Review and Herald, The Remission of Sins, June 13, 1899
Ellen G White insists the Catholic concept of Confession is wrong and no one has the power to forgive sins, despite what John 20:22-23 says, in which she reworks it to be about ecclesiastical censuring:
Remitting sins or retaining applies to the church in her organized capacity. God has given directions to reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all long-suffering and doctrine. Censure is to be given. This censure is to be removed when the one in error repents and confesses his sin.--Ellen White, The Review and Herald, The Remission of Sins, June 13, 1899
 To her forgive sins does not mean forgive sins it means to "remove" a censure, and retain means to "reprove, rebuke, exhort," "censure." However, the Apostles already had this ability since its mentioned in Matthew 18, so they did not need this special event. She disables the text rather than deal with what it plainly states.

Let's look at another time she mentions the pope:
Through the Holy Spirit’s guidance the disciples would remember the lessons Christ had given them; and in their future work, their language would express the divine thought of God. Thus the truth would come down through pure channels, commending itself to the hearts of the receivers. Christ’s followers are to plant their feet, not on the word of pope or prelate, not on the word of the clergy, who mystify everything that is plain, and confuse the minds of the ignorant; they must place their feet upon the sure foundation.--Ellen G White, The Review and Herald, The Parable of the Sower, October 3, 1899 
This statement is itself somewhat ironic since Ellen's commentaries of the scriptures are considered inspired by the Seventh-Day Adventists and therefore to be studied.  So its just a switch and bait--don't follow them--what do they know!? Follow me instead!
Another step in papal assumption was taken, when, in the eleventh century, Pope Gregory VII. proclaimed the perfection of the Romish Church. Among the propositions which he put forth, was one declaring that the church had never erred, nor would it ever err, according to the Scriptures. But the Scripture proofs did not accompany the assertion. The proud pontiff next claimed the power to depose emperors, and declared that no sentence which he pronounced could be reversed by any one, but that it was his prerogative to reverse the decisions of all others.--Ellen White, The Great Controversy 1888, Page 57
First of all, though I do not know for sure if Gregory VII made statement of the "perfection of the Romish Church" and that it could "never erred, nor would, according to Scripture"  and that no sentence "could be reversed by anyone" but I can say dozens of popes,  and bishops Church Fathers long before him made that statement. The indefectibility of the church as a whole if found in the Church Fathers long before Pope Gregory VII. Also, Pope Gregory in his letters DO use scriptural citations for his claims by he ought to be obeyed and respected as Pope, for example
Since thou dost confess thyself a son of the church it would have beseemed thy royal dignity to look more respectfully upon the master of the church,-that is, St. Peter, the chief of the apostles. [Matthew 10:2] To whom, if thou art of the-Lord's sheep, thou west given over by the Lord's voice and authority to be fed; Christ Himself saying: " Peter, feed my sheep." [John 21:17] And again: " To thee are given over the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound also in Heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed also in Heaven." [Matthew 16:18] --Pope Gregory VII, Letter of Gregory VII. to Henry IV., December 1075
It seems Ellen White had in mind the "Dictatus Papae" which is uncertain if it was even written by Pope Gregory VII. In any case, the Dictatus had 27 points, ironically at one time the Seventh-Day Adventist church had "27 Fundamentals"--key doctrines they believed in from 1980-2005 when they added another making it 28 fundamentals.  Also, there is no indication the Dictatus Papae was a public document that was sent to people. Regardless, as I mention above claims of infallibility were not new, nor where Scripture passages for it unknown, just the Dictatus Papae does not cite them.

White in the some work goes on to says:
The advancing centuries witnessed a constant increase of error in the doctrines put forth from Rome. Even before the establishment of the papacy, the teachings of heathen philosophers had received attention and exerted an influence in the church. Many who professed conversion still clung to the tenets of their pagan philosophy, and not only continued its study themselves, but urged it upon others as a means of extending their influence among the heathen. Serious errors were thus introduced into the Christian faith. Prominent among these was the belief in man’s natural immortality and his consciousness in death. This doctrine laid the foundation upon which Rome established the invocation of saints and the adoration of the virgin Mary. From this sprung also the heresy of eternal torment for the finally impenitent, which was early incorporated into the papal faith.--Ellen White, The Great Controversy 1888, Page 58
 She says the heathen philosophers got much attention even before she thinks the papacy was established. Clearly, she disproves of listening to "pagan" and "heathen" philosophers. Who can be blame for this? St Paul actually!
“One of them, a prophet of their own, once said, "Cretans have always been liars, vicious beasts, and lazy gluttons."”—Titus 1:12 *He quotes the Cretan philosopher-poet, Epimenides of Knossos, who lived around the 6th Century BC
For 'In him we live and move and have our being,'—Acts 17:28a *Many attribute the first half to the philosopher-poet Epimenides of Knossos, who lived around the 6th Century BC  
as even some of your poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'—Acts 17:28b *This is a quote of the poet Aratus of Soli, a fellow Cilician of St Paul’s, from the 3rd Century before Christ.
 So we see quoting, read, and using "pagan" philosophers is not inherently wrong, otherwise St Paul corrupted the Bible.

As far as her other claims about the doctrines of immortality of the soul and consciousness after death--those too are taught in the Bible and were believed by the Jews of the time.
And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.--Matthew 10:28
Notice Christ says "destroy" rather than use "kill" when referring to damnation, showing even the damned are not wiped out of existence.

The claim about consciousness after death is refuted by the story of the Witch of Endor. Saul and Samuel where the Biblical text explicitly states the dead Samuel appears.
“An old man is coming up,” she said. “He’s wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed low out of respect, nose to the ground.

 “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Samuel asked Saul.

"I’m in deep trouble!” Saul replied. “The Philistines are at war with me, and God has turned away from me and no longer answers me by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what I should do.”--1 Samuel 28:14-15

Also stories like Judas Maccabee meeting the Prophet Jeremiah and Jesus talking to Moses shows that soul sleep is not the case. Also Revelation 6:9
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”--Revelation 6:9-10
As far as Mary "worship", its interesting she praises St Ambrose in her writings yet St Ambrose said:
"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166
And why should I tell how great is the grace of virginity, which was found worthy to be chosen by Christ, that it might be even the bodily temple of God, in which as we read the fulness of the Godhead dwelt bodily. A Virgin conceived the Salvation of the world, a Virgin brought forth the life of all. Virginity then ought not to be left to itself, seeing that it benefited all in Christ. A Virgin bore Him Whom this world cannot contain or support. And when He was born from His mother’s womb, He yet preserved the fence of her chastity and the inviolate seal of her virginity. And so Christ found in the Virgin that which He willed to make His own, that which the Lord of all might take to Himself. Further, our flesh was cast out of Paradise by a man and woman and was joined to God through a Virgin.--St Ambrose, Epistle LXIII: 33
 And eternal hell is taught plainly in the Bible in Daniel 12, the aforementioned reference in Matthew 10:28 and other places like Revelation.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence. --Daniel 12:2
It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:--Mark 9:44 
 There is no indication that causes us to believe anyone will be wiped out of existence

 

Saturday, April 5, 2014

KJV 1611 and its Popishness

I have recently run into a community of Seventh Day Adventists that are very anti-Catholic and very pro-KJV, insisting that the other Bibles are riddled with the fleas of Popery. Let's check out some of the Popish Romanism the KJV 1611 is logged full of.

In the KJV 1611 Kalendar under February


Popish Holyday the "Purification of Mary" aka Candlemas is on February 2!

Popish feast day of St Valentine is listed under its present date February 14!

Prayers listed under February 2 includes Wisd. 9 and Wisd 12 (a Catholic book omitted in modern edition of the KJV 1611)

Prayers listed under February 24 includes Wisd xix (the last chapter of this papist book!)

Next Page--March

This page exposes even grander examples of the KJV's popery!


The Popish feast day of St Edward the Martyr--A Romish English, Saint, King and Martyr is listed under March 18 the traditional papist date

The Romish feast day of the Annunciation of Mary is listed under March 25--9 months before the holyday Christmas.

The Popish feast of the founder of Western monasticism St Benedict of Nursia is celebrated on March 21, as some do.

Even worse, in its most blatant, unashamed example of Popery yet it lists a Romish Pope on its Kalendar!

Pope Gregorie aka Gregory the Great (reigned AD 590-604) is listed under its present day of March 12!

Conclusion: This and many more show the Catholic influence in the King James Version 1611 Bible. A good seventh day Adventist or good Baptist should either reject this so called translation for its obvious influence by Popery or become a miserable papist himself! As it must be asked if Adventists and Baptists insist the KJV 1611 is perfect because of its pure manuscripts from Textus receptus of the Antioch Line, then why is it no Baptist or Adventist makes a modern-updated version of the text into modern English, rather than spend all the time on the older English of the KJV--since after all the NKJV is corrupt? Could it be no Baptist or Adventist is qualified to do such a thing, or that they cannot trust their own people?!

ADDENDUM:
Per request, the KJV 1611 calendar for December-January:

December:

Notice it includes the "Conc. of Mary" ie the Feast of the Immaculate Conception on December 8,  feast day of St Nicholas on December 6, Luci virgin (St Lucy) on December 13, as well as Christmas on December 25, the feast of [Pope] St Sylvester on December 31


January: