Monday, November 29, 2010

Was God the Son separated from God the Father are Calvary?

Recently, a few people has told me and others on Paltalk that during the Cross Christ was "separated from the Father."  One person that said this was an antiCatholic who is a Calvinist, another was a young man that left the Church believing himself to be more Catholic than the pope (he stated Christ's separation was purely in His humanity, not Divinity), another was an anti/ex-Catholic who received education at a Protestant 'bible college.'.

People that promote this theory use many scriptures as proof texts.  They include the Scripture at Calvary where Christ says "why have you forsaken me," the passage in 1st Corinthians where St Paul declares Christ became sin for us, and other passages which state Christ "bore" our sins, and the verse in Isaiah 53 where it speaks of the suffering Servant as being "cut off"

As a note the verse about being forsaken is a quotation of Psalm 22 and Christ is expressing the words of sinners, perhaps the best explanation for this is found by St Augustine of Hippo:

"...the first verse of which the Lord Himself uttered on the Cross: "My God, My God, look upon Me; why have You forsaken Me?" For "transferring us in a figure" [1 Corinthians 4:6] to what He was saying, and to His own Body (for we are also "His Body," and He is our "Head"), He uttered from the Cross not His own cry, but ours. For God never "forsook" Him: nor did He Himself ever depart from the Father; but it was in behalf of us that He spoke this: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" For there follows, "Far from My health are the words of My offences:" and it shows in whose person He said this; for sin could not be found in Him.…"--Exposition on Psalm 44
I will deal with the other Scripture verses at a later time.

The main reason the view Christ was separated from the Father is not a viable view if for it's incompatiblity with Trinity theology and the hypostatic union.

For Christ to be separated from the Father would require either Arianism (even temporary) or some form of temporary polytheism.  For Christ being God to be separated from God the Father would mean there was some form of fracture in the Trinity.  The Trinity is a profession that God is one substance in the Persons that are united.  Many Protestants like to assert that Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear of Israel....the Lord is One) word echad (one) refers to a compound unity.  Now if God is a compound unity, then how can God the Son be separated from God the Father and still be One God, that is a compound unity?  The answer is plain, it cannot be the case. God cannot be separated from Himself, it would be illogical in anyway.  One of the individuals told me it only seems illogical, like when God became a man.  However, God becoming a man is not illogical because God the Son did not lose His form as God by assuming a human nature, John 3:13 tells us He was in Heaven while being on Earth.  While the theory Christ was separted from the Father is absolutely illogical since it violates the profession of God being One, a 'compound unity.' 

Now for the belief that Jesus Christ was only separated from the Father in His human nature alone.  This view is less illogical and less blasphemous at the first, but it is still a great error to claim since it would split the Person of Christ into two and undue the incarnation.  If He is fully God and man united in one person, Jesus Christ, that is the hypostatic union, then the Atonement would require Him to be separated from Himself, requiring Him possibly to be present solely in His Human nature at the Cross. This person that pushed this theory (the sedevacantist) eventually seemed to admit he did not know much theology (which begs then "how are you a sedevacantist if you don't know much theology" since sedevacantists insist the Church has fallen into heresy, but perhaps he IS a sedevacantist BECAUSE he does not know much theology, but this is the subject of another article.)

In experience I have only met one person (a Protestant) that acknowledged the difficulty in believing Jesus was separated from God the Father at the Cross who accepted it. He said told me in rougly these words "Yes the Trinity was broken up at the Cross!"

To be Continued....

Wednesday, November 17, 2010

More bad errors on Paltalk

1. JesusIsMyKing (aka Nader)--holds to the belief that Adam original sin does not cause physical death, only spiritual, As 'proof' he quotes Hebrews: 
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:-Hebrews 9:27
He assumes this is something that was always the case, whereas this appointment to die is the result of Adam's sin.  This doctrine is particularly odd since not even the Pelagians were interested in denying the physical death, 

He was attempting to prove this to escape from the fact that Christ's death on the Cross died no pay the penalty of all man's sins on the cross.  Since original sin causes us to die both spiritually and physically, had Christ's atonement paid this penalty, then Christians (or atleast Fundamentalists) should never physically die, since this according to them should have been paid for.

We can know that Adam's sin did cause man to suffer physical death by the words of St Paul on the matter:

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.-1 Corinthians 15:20-22 
 The death spoken here is physical death, since it is contrasted with the ressurection of the dead. 

Therefore, "JesusIsMyKing" is wrong.  Adam did cause physical death to fall upon all men, even the Jews believe this. 

Conclusion: Adam's sin caused physical death to come down on the human race, it was part of the penalty/punishment for man sinning.  Now since Christians still die a physical death, dare we say Christ paid this punishment on the Cross? No.


       1. Physical Death is the punishment of the Sin of Adam (1 Cor 15:21)
       2. All Christians die. (Observable fact, see church obituaries and cementaries)
Conclusion: Christ did not pay the punishment of all sins on the Cross.

What happened at the Cross? Christ appeased the wrath of God by His death, that is a Propitiation. (1 John 2:2)